Look, maybe this isn't a good format for this discussion. If anyone wants to get together for coffee I can be available.

Maybe there problem is the fact that there are actually two density-efficiency theories and we're failing to separate them.

On one hand, density theory makes sense when planning NEW development for a variety of reasons. Sprawl is not good. So density theory makes sense as planning priority for new development.

On the other hand, density theory fails when used to describe EXISTING urban environments for a variety of reasons.

I've been talking about the existing urban environment i.e. the city of MPLS. Now I make my case by comparing city budgets per capita. Here's the thing: Maybe my analysis is lazy, but that doesn't make wrong. If my analysis is wrong it's not because YOU say it's its wrong, or because it defies YOUR common sense, or because SLP has highways and MPLS doesn't, or because MPLS sells more water, or because MPLS has regional amenities, etc. It's really very simple, if somone wants to prove that existing density in MPLS delivers resources and services more efficiently you have to actually demonstrate that, not just declare it. I hate to tell you this but you guys are actually having a surprisingly difficult time demonstrating it. I'm not expressing suburban chauvinism when I ask for evidence, I'm simply being rational. All I'm really saying is when it comes to these claims about density advantage in existing urban environments... show me. I see your hypothesis but frankly your hypothesis doesn't appear to survive even a lazy and elementary challenge. The only one who seems to be taking that challenge seriously is Alex,and I'll be interested to see what he comes up with.

As for water... you can insult me all you want but that doesn't prove anything. If anyone really wanted to prove that MPLS delivers more water to more people for less cost than SLP you simply have to show us the numbers. All the mumbo jumbo about the "apparent" size water budget doesn't tell us anything, show us the actual numbers. It's fine if you don't want to take the time to do that but then don't accuse ME of begin lazy. Frankly even you can prove that MPLS has a more efficient water dept. (and good on them if they do), it can't erase the over-all disparity.

Now I really am going to sign off. If anyone wants to continue this conversation you can e-mail me I'm easy to find, or like I said, I'm available for coffee.