Scott Dibble and Frank Hornstein have been friends and transportation advocates since before they were elected to the state legislature, so we sat down with them to find out how that has shaped their careers.
Attributions
Our theme song is Tanz den Dobberstein, and our interstitial song is Puck’s Blues. Both tracks used by permission of their creator, Erik Brandt. Find out more about his band, The Urban Hillbilly Quartet, on their website.
This episode was hosted, edited, and transcribed by Ian R Buck. Many thanks to Scott Dibble and Frank Hornstein for coming on the show! We’re always looking to feature new voices on the show, so if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [email protected].
Transcript
[00:00:00] Frank: Scott and I had a unique role, a unique friendship, a unique way of collaborating together, and I think it served the district quite well. We did town meetings together. We did a lot of work.
[00:00:13] Scott: Newsletters, everything.
[00:00:14] Frank: We did a lot of carpooling together.
[00:00:17] Scott: Walking around Bde Maka Ska.
[00:00:19] Frank: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:00:23] Ian: Welcome to the Streets.mn Podcast, the show where we highlight how transportation and land use can make our communities better places. Coming to you from beautiful Uptown, Minneapolis, Minnesota, I’m your host Ian R. Buck. If you have been paying attention to state level transportation legislation in the last 20 years, you are no doubt familiar with Scott Dibble and Frank Hornstein. They have both chaired their respective chambers’ transportation committees during DFL majorities. Scott has been in the legislature since 2000, first in the House at the encouragement of retiring state Senator Allan Spear, and then soon taking Senate District 61 when Myron Orfield switched careers in 2002. That’s also when Frank first ran for House of Representatives since he and Scott were already close friends and they didn’t want to primary against each other. That established friendship resulted in a very close working relationship, especially given that they both focus on transportation. (Frank, notably, lives car free.) So I sat down with the dynamic duo to talk about their careers. We’ll jump into the conversation right after Frank was explaining to me that after the 2020 census redistricting, he had to move a couple of neighborhoods north in order to remain in his existing district.
[00:01:43] Scott: So that was a happy development for me because then he moved just right down the street.
[00:01:49] Ian: Yeah.
[00:01:49] Scott: And so for a number of years, he was less than five minutes away.
[00:01:55] Frank: We did a lot of carpooling together and walking together around Bde Maka Ska. Yes, absolutely.
[00:02:00] Ian: So is that a decision that state representatives commonly have to make is like, “hey, redistricting is happening. Maybe I’m going to have to move a short distance in order to stay in my district.”
[00:02:14] Frank: Correct. Yes. Absolutely. It’s quite common.
[00:02:17] Ian: That is very unique, a very unique experience. Most people in the world don’t have to think about that kind of.
[00:02:25] Scott: Well, moving or their decision is to either retire or run against a colleague or something like that.
[00:02:33] Ian: Right. So you alluded to the two of you are already friends around 2000 when the two of you were thinking about running for the first time. So where did that friendship come from? How did the two of you meet? Like what had you worked on together, stuff like that?
[00:02:54] Frank: Well, interestingly, it was a lot of transit issues and regional equity issues. And so Scott was working for an organization called the Neighborhood Transportation Network, which I can let him talk more about that, but they were very much interested in promoting transit, but also at the same time making sure that I-35W wasn’t expanded. And I was working for a group called the Alliance. It was the Alliance for Metropolitan Stability at the time. Now it’s called just the Alliance. And the Neighborhood Transportation Network was a constituent member of that organization. So we were at a lot of meetings together pursuing a common goal, which was promoting better land use, better transit, and regional equity. And so we knew each other quite well before we even considered running. I think I first met Scott in 1994. So that’s six years before he first ran and eight years before I first ran.
[00:04:03] Scott: So the first time I actually met Frank in person, though, he called me up out of the blue. I mean, I kind of knew of him, of course, because we had these intersecting organizations. I was just getting started on this work at what we call NTN, the Neighborhood Transportation Network. And we had a big annual benefit coming up. And he said, “hey, I can do this great impression of Paul Wellstone. I come to your event and I’ll do the Paul Wellstone for you.” And so I said, “sure.” And so sure enough, Frank came and during part of the program that evening, he came up and did his Paul Wellstone and it was a big hit. And we raised a lot of money and it was fantastic.
[00:04:50] Frank: It was a great event, as I recall.
[00:04:54] Scott: But yeah, so like I said, our organizations supported each other because transportation, of course, is all about housing opportunity, democratic participation, climate, making sure that people have opportunities no matter who they are or where they live. And so the Alliance got worked on as well as Jewish Community Action, which also Frank founded and launched. Was working on, for example, there was an effort to displace Jewish Russian immigrants from affordable housing in Loring Park neighborhood because the developer was going to pay off their financing and just throw literally dozens and dozens of elderly Jewish Russian immigrants out on their ear. And Frank got me involved in mobilizing on that and keeping those folks in place. And likewise, we had what we call the legendary and the last ever Minnesota Department of Transportation public hearing. After that, they went to these workshop things. Richville High School. And we mobilized for weeks and months ahead of time. And Richfield High School, we had literally hundreds of us there. We wore pajamas because we knew it was going to go through the night. And provided just hours and hours of testimony about 35W expansion that was going to be totally absent any transit, any consideration of housing and equity and climate and the impact of pollution and what was going to happen to our communities and neighborhoods. And Frank was a big part of mobilizing and getting dozens and dozens of people to that.
[00:06:39] Frank: Literally, I think at least a thousand people showed up at that.
[00:06:43] Ian: And was that the 35W work that ended up being like the Orange Line being part of that? Or is that a later project? There have been two 35W projects like within my lifetime?
[00:06:59] Scott: So what ended up happening is a long and complicated story. But so we did end up actually so the EIS that was done for the 35W expansion way back then in the 90s, we ended up, we won. And they included as the preferred alternative transit in the corridor and other sorts of kind of expansion management concessions. But then MnDOT pulled this little dirty trick, which was they didn’t ever actually build quote unquote that project and they segmented it into a series of smaller projects. In violation of- so they pretended like each little project fell short of needing the full EIS. We sued on that. And the federal judge in the case found for MnDOT and we just didn’t have the where with all the resources to appeal yet a violent gigantic bond we couldn’t afford to purchase the bond. And and so that’s what ended up happening. I will say though that the Orange Line is a is a direct I mean, so it was actually going to be LRT in the corridor.
[00:08:11] Frank: Yeah, they had buttons, the Neighborhood Transportation Network had buttons, “trains, not lanes.”
[00:08:17] Scott: Yeah, yeah, we had a phrase we borrowed a phrase that went something like “trying to to address congestion through the expansion of traffic lanes is like trying to address obesity by by buying a bigger belt.” The idea of induced, induced demand. So, so the project at the, you know, at the end of the day, you know, approximates what was originally envisioned. But the number of affordable housing, the amount of affordable housing that was originally going to be taken, never did come to pass. And so we kept a lot of folks in place, small businesses that were going to be obliterated were kept in place. We did get transit in the corridor. That is the Orange Line and a lot of other good things happened as a result of that effort because we just changed the conversation in the whole entire region.
[00:09:11] Ian: For context, for those listening at home, I think that the two of you were in your late 20s, early 30s at that time when that when that highway fight was happening.
[00:09:23] Scott: Yes.
[00:09:24] Ian: So like, I want the young activists who listen to this show to like to think about that realize that like, you know, the fights that we’re having today are not, they’re not the end of the road, right? Like some of the people who are currently working and volunteering for a lot of these advocacy issues like might go on to become part of the state legislature or, you know, city councils and things like that, right? And like the more activists we can get elected to positions like the more impact that we can have. So, you know, because when you when you read about, you know, like the state legislature in the in what early in the state’s history, right? It’s like, oh, it’s all the big businessmen and like the lawyers and, you know, they were kind of a rotating cast of people who are, you know, had a high influence there.
[00:10:20] Scott: Bankers, railroaders, yeah.
[00:10:22] Ian: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So, so let’s get into, you know, your careers in the legislature, you know, walk us through a little bit like, you know, first, what are your like your big highlights, top three kind of, you know, moments that you look back on fondly over the last 25 years?
[00:10:43] Scott: Well, it’s hard to limit it to three.
[00:10:45] Ian: I know!
[00:10:47] Scott: You know, it’s easy to rattle off a couple of, you know, major policy achievements. But there’s another aspect to serving in the legislature. You know, it’s just it’s just an incredible honor every single day to meet people and to work with them and to be a small part of their work. We meet people who are leaders in, you know, all kinds of different realms and sectors throughout Minnesota life and civil society. And, you know, I, you know, of course, cannot not mention, you know, defeating the anti-marriage amendment and then immediately pivoting and passing the freedom to marry something that I couldn’t even fathom as a young LGBTQ person. You know, we started working on basic human and civil rights and anti-discrimination laws back in, you know, the late 80s, early 90s. We passed the non-discrimination law in 1993 and then started the first little tentative conversations about our families and our relationships, but in kind of very opaque ways and, you know, kind of round the margins. And to even say, I remember my very first opponent accused me of being in favor of gay marriage, you know, and, you know, I was like, ooh, gay marriage. You know, what a shocking thing. And then, of course, you know, fast-forward to 2023 and passing the transportation bill that we had worked on and envisioned and talked about. I mean, we got a little start of it on it in 2008, but the 2023 bill really was the full flower of the culmination of 30-plus years of organizing effort. That was a gigantic achievement as well.
[00:12:35] Frank: Yeah, I often say when I introduce Senator Dibble, I always say we would not have marriage equality in the state without him. There were a lot of people, obviously, that worked on this and grassroots organizing, but Scott was really the brains behind the operations, I say.
[00:12:56] Scott: There are a number of brains, I was one, but it was a remarkable achievement. It set a number of records in terms of volunteer hours, number of individuals, small dollars raised, you know, geographic reach, the broad base of the coalition, you know, that cut across geography and cut across political identity and affiliation and you name it. Pains me to say this, but we even kind of put up higher numbers in all of those categories than Paul Wellstone’s election. At that time, Paul Wellstone was absolutely the high-water mark in terms of grassroots mobilization and movement-building around elections.
[00:13:47] Frank: All the house parties and phone banking that went into this was extraordinary.
[00:13:55] Scott: People, I remember I kind of got the, you know, when we started off that campaign, we were absolutely going to lose. There was no doubt about it. We were down 60-40 or more at the outset. And then by the time, you know, fast forward to the state fair the following year. So, you know, the opponents made a big mistake in giving us 18 months to mobilize. And so, you know, a year plus later, State Fair end of August, early September, you know, we’re looking at the November election and we had a booth at the State Fair and the lines were around the block and people were clamoring for the swag and the lawn signs. Meanwhile, our opponents had a booth and, you know, no one would even be seen near it. You know, almost felt bad for them. Not really, but, you know, we could not keep lawn signs in print, you know, and then we had like can koozies and, you know, all kinds of swag, you know, “just vote no” or “vote no.” And yeah, that’s when I forgot the first little glimmer of hope that we were going to defeat the amendment.
[00:15:01] Ian: Nice.
[00:15:01] Scott: And then to be able to pivot, you know, because then we won that election, of course, took back the Senate, took back the House, and we had, you know, Governor Dayton in place and, you know, immediately to pivot and really push hard. You know, among my colleagues to just, you know, just fulfill the mandate of the election, which was to pass marriage.
[00:15:22] Ian: Yeah.
[00:15:23] Frank: Yeah.
[00:15:25] Ian: How many times did we have a DFL trifecta over the last during your careers?
[00:15:33] Frank: Well, it was just this time, 2013-2014, and then 2023-2024.
[00:15:43] Ian: Wow. Okay.
[00:15:45] Scott: Yeah. So, yeah. So other than those two times, you know, I came into the minority in the House, you know, then jumped over to the Senate thinking I would serve a long career in the majority in the Senate, like it had been the last 40 years. And then like one cycle later crashed into the minority.
[00:16:03] Frank: Yeah.
[00:16:04] Scott: And then it was like split, you know, split. Either the governor was a Republican, you know, or one or more of the chambers was Republicans.
[00:16:11] Frank: So in addition to the transportation bill that we passed again, as Scott said, we had been working on a variation of this, you know, indexing the gas tax, making sure that we had adequate resources for transit via the sales tax and other items in that bill. But, you know, we were able to also pass driver’s license for all. And, you know, that was, you know, a classic example of movement building, you know, similar to, you know, gay marriage being unheard of at certain points, particularly in the 1990s, the idea of aspiring citizens being able to get a driver’s license was completely shoved off to the fringes when this first, you know, started in the early 2000s. And then by, you know, every session we got, we made more and more progress on that issue. It’s a point where we had hearings in 2023 and each of our committees. And there was very little controversy within the Democratic Party in terms of, you know, passing that legislation.
[00:17:32] Ian: Yeah. And so, I assume that that’s why it’s important in years when we don’t have a trifecta for, you know, whichever house the DFL has a majority to actually still be like going through the steps, even if they know like, oh, the other house is not going to move on it.
[00:17:49] Frank: Rallies is at the Capitol, press conferences, town meetings in districts.
[00:17:56] Scott: Public conversation, you know, capacity building. You know, I mean, it’s an important thing to remember that the things we’re talking about should not be partisan. They’re about improving people’s lives. You know, and you know, as what is Paul Wellstone’s great.
[00:18:17] Frank: Paul Wellstone always said “politics is at its core about improving people’s lives.”
[00:18:21] Scott: You know, and “everyone counts and everyone matters” as Keith Ellison often says. And so, you know, simply, you know, presuming that there’s going to be a particular outcome because of the partisan makeup of either the Senate or the House means that a couple of things, you know, it sends a signal that, oh, maybe it doesn’t matter as much, you know, it can wait, you know, well, you know, we have the fierce urgency of now people’s lives are being affected today. And just to simply put something off for two years means more people will suffer the consequences of an action, number one. Number two, you’re simply letting elected representatives off the hook to, you know, giving them a pass to not respond to the reality of the inequality and the disparities in our society and in our economy. So, you know, I have this conversation all the time with advocacy organizations or, you know, organizations that are serving people, “well, should we just wait because the climate is…” and I just “say absolutely not because if you wait, that doesn’t signal to everyone, it doesn’t actually matter that much.” Anyway, and these things matter phenomenally in people’s lives, not an abstraction, you know, for someone who’s trying to put food on their table.
[00:19:38] Ian: Right, right. And, and, you know, then you can put an elected official on the record as, you know, like, if you’re not pushing for something, you know, they could make there’s there’s that plausible deniability, like, well, the conversation never came up. So like, they didn’t have to take a stance on it. Okay, so what’s something that you wish that people knew about like the work of state legislators? Like, what’s the day to day like? So, so you hop, you hop in your carpool with your best friend from, from the legislature, and you, you go over to the state capital, you know, what are you doing all day?
[00:20:17] Frank: Well, every day is different. You know, we obviously have committee meetings and caucus meetings and meetings with our constituents. But there’s a lot of strategy involved. And, you know, when bills are brought up, how they’re brought up. And, you know, part of our role is to make sure that we have grassroots voices at the table testifying. And so we need to do quite a bit of outreach to our allies, just to make sure they know what’s going on. And ensuring that, you know, we are able to create the public conversation around particular issues. And that’s why I think, you know, I return to the transportation bill of 2023, the driver’s license for all. I mean, these are things that, you know, happened over many, many years. The ideas that were promulgated in those bills were literally 20 years in the making. And so, as Scott said, it’s a lot of engagement with our constituents. And no day is ever the same. And that’s what’s so wonderful about the work.
[00:21:39] Scott: Yeah. So I would say it is hard to describe, number one, how different every day is. I mean, I wish I was good at like journaling or keeping notes.
[00:21:52] Ian: Who has the time?
[00:21:54] Scott: And also, you just never, exactly. You just, your day is never going to unfold the way you think it will based on like what’s in your calendar. Because things just happen, you know, and the day just, you know, so the ability to stay very nimble, very flexible, reprioritize, shuffle. I mean, you know, you may find yourself giving an interview, a TV interview, or radio interview, running over to the rotunda to give a speech that you weren’t thinking about or meeting with a giant group of folks who are having their lobby day on the hill that you didn’t know about, you know, dropping in on a colleague to discuss an issue. You know, a lot of constituents come over without having made appointments and want to talk, which is wonderful, totally fine, 100%. I’m down for that. So I encourage, I encourage everyone to come to the Capitol and find their legislator, whether they have an appointment or not, and try to even spend a few minutes with them out in the hallway. You know, you send a note in, you know, if we’re on the floor or if we’re in committee, send a note in and, you know, we’ll come out and spend some time with you in the hallway or, you know, you can ask to drop in on me in my office. I’ll always receive someone. You know, I’ll kick out lobbyists or whomever. The constituents matter, I do it all the time. So that’s the other thing people should know, is that we’re very, very, very accessible. You know, whether that’s during session or during the interim to grab a cup of coffee or, you know, go to your organization, whatever that is, and spend some time with your organization, you know, working, you know, bringing issues together. You know, one thing I will also say, though, is that if you have an idea for a policy, a solution to a problem, it would be great if you also were willing to spend some time working on all the elements that are important for that to be successful in terms of its passage.
[00:24:05] Ian: Oh, so not just implementation, but also passage?
[00:24:10] Scott: Well, yeah, I mean, so, you know, let’s have a conversation about the problem, let’s work, identify on some policy solutions, but then that’s not the end of the process for citizens. What goes into passing a bill includes generating a public conversation, seeing if it can build a coalition, if you can get some conversation going on the editorial page, or through organizations that you’re a part of, or that you can attract to the work, generate some phone calls and emails and visits to my 200 colleagues that I have, who are going to actually be asked to vote favorably on this. So I’m actually very willing and happy to spend time really training people on the elements of what a successful legislative campaign looks like, and all the organizing and all the tactics and all the strategies and everything that goes into successful passage, because it is actually an unusual piece of legislation that is simply carried by a solitary legislator. The first thing that my colleagues are going to want to know is, you know, “who’s for this and what problem are we solving and how extensive is the problem? I haven’t heard anything about it,” you know, hearing about it for the first time in committee, having no context, having never seen it show up in the newspapers or in community conversation or in their email box or on their phone or, you know, with their constituents, that they’re going to be a little reluctant because there’s just a lot of demand for our time and attention and our money, and it’s ultimately a very human type of system, where we’re really affected by our interactions with the world around us and particularly our constituents.
[00:26:00] Frank: Yeah, I think it’s a really important point that, you know, when I first showed up at the Capitol was, you know, 1988, 1989, I was working as an organizer for Clean Water Action at the time and I was amazed at how accessible the legislators were and that I thought that they were all lawyers, you know, but, you know, you have teachers and farmers and, you know, it was really an eye-opener for me to see that these were regular folks and, again, you know, you could just, if the door was open, I would knock on the door and, you know, I would be welcomed into an office. So I think it’s really important to know that the Minnesota legislature, at least, there’s a lot of access points for the public.
[00:27:01] Ian: And this made me think of a question, like, so when it’s entered into the record that, like, so-and-so senator or so-and-so representative is an author of a bill, that doesn’t mean the same thing that we think of when we say, like, you know, this person was an author of a novel. Like, that farmer, that teacher, wasn’t writing all of the legalese, right?
[00:27:25] Scott: We work sometimes at a detailed level, sometimes at a higher level with community, you know, with stakeholders, but then with our teams of policy analysts and attorneys and fiscal analysts who help us actually write the actual literal language of the bills themselves. So the joke that I make is, you know, we scratch out some vague ideas on a dirty napkin handed to our staff and they transform it into a beautiful piece of legislation. Not quite like that, but, you know, we just are very fortunate to be surrounded by extremely high quality, high caliber people who are, you know, who know the conventions of legal construction, you know, to make sure that, you know, the ideas that we have can really synthesize with our statutes and our laws.
[00:28:13] Ian: All right. So what brought each of you to transportation and land use as a focus?
[00:28:15] Scott: The short version, it’s a long story, but as a young person, you know, in college in the late 80s and early 90s, you know, I came out of the closet and that was at the time that we really saw HIV, AIDS really hitting hard and impacting, especially the gay men’s community, you know, our sisters in the lesbian community really, really rose up and were in solidarity with us, took care of us, you know, became, and, you know, the, you know, part of the diagnosis, you know, of AIDS was, you know, part of what caused AIDS was homophobia, which is, you know, all the marginalization, you know, all of the hostility, all of the indifference, you know, just, you know, and that’s really sparked kind of the second wave, if you will, of the movement for, you know, kind of following. I mean, there’s been a slow and steady build, you know, going back to Stonewall and even way before then, of course, but there was a real galvanizing that happened in the LGBTQ community to, instead of retreating into the shadows of shame and fear and despair, because, you know, so many of us were dying and no one cared and, you know, all we had all this hostility from the president on down and or indifference and, you know, just, so that was what I came into, you know, and I happened to be attending a Catholic institution at the time, St. Thomas and Archbishop then was just terrible and, you know, that was my coming of age story and, you know, and I connected with this amazing community of proud, happy people, you know, who were, you know, her kind of just incredible, you know, doing for themselves when no one else was doing, you know, so we formed care teams to take care of people who were sick and dying and, you know, housing and legal advocacy and organizations and infrastructure and traditions and, you know, just community connectivity and, you know, reformed artistic and, you know, and it was just like exhilarating to get connected with that movement and that community and just learn from and have the most amazing role models and mentors and the like. And that work, of course, was all about dealing with marginalization and injustice and demanding what we should be able to expect from our democracy, from our leaders, from the other institutions that were supposed to serve us and they were failing us. And that work allowed me to then connect with people who are working on those exact same issues but from other perspectives, whether it was race or economic marginalization, etc. So I happened to, through all that, connect with a woman who was, who had really saw transportation in this light and she had initially gotten drawn into this fight on 35W expansion, her name was Doré Mead, and she had founded the Neighborhood Transportation Network. And one of my friends, one of my gay friends, had been drawn into her work. He was on the, he served in the leadership of NTN and he’s the one who came and drew me into the work and I got super turned on to this struggle, this existential struggle of justice and democratic participation and listening to marginalized voices. So transportation for me was always closely connected with that movement for human rights around AIDS and LGBTQ issues. And so yeah, so I got all of a sudden all of this intersectionality, you know, kind of a hackey word, but it was very much about intersectionality and I was really, really turned on. And she was of course amazing and a visionary. She was the only one talking about this sort of thing in this metro area at that time. And then we got connected with the folks who were working on housing, justice and land use and all of that. So I always like to say I’m the big queer transit activist because it was the queer politics that got me turned on to transit and non motorized transportation and democratic participation in the, in the major decisions that affect people’s lives at their most core fundamental.
[00:32:43] Ian: Yeah, it sounds like that perspective was kind of essential for you to be able to recognize the importance of it because like I feel like broadly speaking, like people don’t recognize that transportation justice is like such an important issue. You know, like, “I just get around how I get around. I don’t think about it, you know, of course I have a car” and, you know.
[00:33:05] Scott: The fish who are swimming and “how’s the water boys” and then the young fish says the other young fish, “what’s water?” you know, that’s what, you know, that’s what like highways and roads are to a lot of people.
[00:33:18] Frank: Right. My portal into all of this is, um, uh, was through the environmental movement and I was in sixth grade at the time, the first Earth Day. I heard on the radio that Earth Day is coming up and maybe carry a sign or pick up litter or don’t get in a car. You know, those are the three things I remember from hearing about participating in Earth Day. And so I, I did all three. I told the parents who were driving the car pool, uh, “don’t wait for me. I’m going to walk home.” Um, and I also made a sign that said, “don’t litter” and I picked up litter on the way home.
[00:34:02] Ian: That’s something you can’t do in a car.
[00:34:07] Frank: Right! And, uh, so, you know, that was in sixth grade and I just from that on, and really, you know, was an environmentalist. I joined the Sierra Club when I was in high school. Um, and, uh, you know, from then on, you know, majored in environmental studies. Uh, I got a message at Macalester College, uh, where I attended that, uh, if you want to change the world, you should be a community organizer. And, um, so, you know, that’s a path I pursued. Uh, and so transportation was always a part of, of, of my environmental ethic. Um, but I think it really solidified for me. I got, uh, appointed to the Metropolitan Council and served on the Met Council for two years from 2000 to 2002. And that’s when I really learned so much about transit and how transit relates to all the set of issues that Scott talked about, you know, land use, affordable housing, you know, why he, so I always thought that in the legislature I would be on the Environment Committee, which I was one year, but the Environment Committee seemed to always happen at the same time as the Transportation Committee. So I couldn’t do both, but I chose Transportation Finance, I think, out of my experience at the Met Council and served on the Transportation Finance Committee every single, uh, you know, biennium that I served in the, in the legislature and was able to chair, we both were transit chairs, uh, at different points. We had a subcommittees created just for transit, both the House and the Senate. Um, and, you know, we would be in conference committees together and, uh, pretty early on in our legislative careers. Um, but it was really, um, you know, the first trifecta and the override of the Pawlenty veto of the, of the Transportation Bill in 2008, the first trifecta was 2013, where we really, um, were able to start working really, really closely together. You know, the override was a really important development and, uh, we hadn’t raised the gas tax for a while and we started the Metro sales tax at a quarter cent, um, and were able to build off of that from there.
[00:36:37] Scott: We weren’t the, we weren’t the chairs then, um, but, um, Margaret Anderson Kelliher was the speaker. She was our House member, one of our House members, so Frank was on the B side, Margaret was on the A side, and then I was over, you know, of course, in the Senate, serving, uh, on the, on the Transportation Committee. I wasn’t even the lead then, but we happened to have, um, uh, just a really, really strong working relationship with Margaret. Um, and so we were really, uh, a key part of really mapping out the strategy for that override.
[00:37:10] Ian: Now, something that I’ve noticed, um, is that not only the two of you, but also like you mentioned Margaret Anderson Kelliher, you know, who was, uh, in 61B at the time, like the three of you kind, or A, yes, right. Yes. Frank you were in B. Like the three of you working really closely together on, especially transportation stuff and, um, you know, and Frank after you retired, like now we have Katie Jones, uh, you know, who is also like living car-free, very pro-transit, transportation minded, like, what is it about District 61?
[00:37:49] Scott: And Jamie Long is the chief author, the 100% bill. Yeah. Um, uh, you know, to get us to 100% renewable energy. Good question. I mean, the other, the other thing to know about 61, neither of us kind of reflect this, but we have more than our fair share of folks who have served as either speaker or president or majority leader or floor leader. You know, just Jamie, of course, is the, you know, as the majority leader of it, well, or floor leader of his party. We had Margaret Anderson Kelliher, who was speaker, Dee Long, who was speaker, Paul Thissen, who was speaker, um, Allan Spean, who was president. Um, you know, so we got, we got a lot of leadership that comes out. Um, I’ll venture a guess. Um, first of all, uh, this district elects mega policy nerds. I mean, for all of you know, I think politically capable and, you know, have an eye towards, um, you know, what power and how power and politics, uh, you know, kind of moves through the legislature and, and how to harness that resource, if you will, of power and politics. Um, but, um, you know, every, I don’t think there’s been a, I mean, you know, there’s kind of work horses and show horses in politics. Yeah. And, and every legislator I can think of in, in my time and before, Myron Orfield, one of the biggest policy nerds you’ll ever meet in your life. Yeah. Um, uh, so just a real fidelity and focus on, on, on the importance of policy and doing your homework and getting it right, working hard and working, uh, collaboratively with, and we have phenomenal people in this district. I mean, really, and who, who are just really, really involved that we partner with and that, you know, advance a lot of ideas and we collaborate with. I don’t know what, what’s your take?
[00:39:36] Frank: Yeah, no, I think that, uh, it’s a combination of the, the personalities that, you know, have risen up to serve in public office here in the legislature. Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I think it’s just such an active district and we have the highest, you know, consistently have had the highest voter turnout um, in the state.
[00:39:57] Scott: Combined with the, the largest number of, of, of raw votes. Um, so turnout, uh, combined with raw vote, combined with, uh, voting percentages that, that support us, you know, it’s very, very engaged, plugged in, you know, collaborative, activist communicative, you know, communicative district.
[00:40:20] Frank: Yeah. And we’ve just uh, year after year have had that highest number of votes, highest, uh, voter turnout by percentage. So it’s an active district.
[00:40:31] Ian: And so, and, and a consistently DFL district. So like once you get a policy nerd in office, you know, they are going to have the opportunity to stay there and, you know, really build up that seniority, that experience and yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:46] Scott: Seniority is, is, uh, very, very important in the legislature. So it takes a while to become conversant and effective and good. And that’s a function of experience, knowledge, wisdom, relationships, you know, building up a body of work and a body of respect. Um, uh, you know, with your colleagues and, you know, and kind of with, you know, the vast landscape of, of, of stakeholders and, you know, you know, whether those are, you know, people who represent counties and cities and, you know, and other entities across the state or people who represent major sectors, it just takes a while. And, and, and to take that away from the legislature means you’re just simply handing a lot of power over to the corporate lobby because they’re there 24 seven year in and year out. And, uh, and you’re handing a lot to the executive branch for, you know, and, and, and a lot to the unelected, um, uh, state bureaucracy, which, you know, I’m a gigantic supporter of public service and public servants and have a lot of respect for the professionals. And then by definition, they’re not innovating. They’re not responding to a changing world and a changing economy. Um, you know, that’s why we have elective democracies is that we can be responsive and involved in change.
[00:42:07] Ian: Is it common for like state senator and state representatives from the same districts to be like working super closely on things?
[00:42:18] Frank: Yeah, it varies, um, from district to district. But I think that, uh, Scott and I had a unique role, a unique friendship, a unique way of collaborating together. And, uh, I think it served the district quite well. Um, we have lots of people in the same party that are in the state Senate and the state house and they don’t do the same, the same type of work that we did. Um, we did town meetings together. We did a lot of work…
[00:42:49] Scott: Newsletters, everything. We have been very conscious and conscientious about, uh, really making sure that our transportation leadership was representative of the whole state. Right, right. Both because that’s in our nature. Uh, number one, number two, um, you know, we didn’t want to be buttonholed and pigeonholed that way. And we also had, you know, served on these transportation committees for a number of years, watching both Democratic and Republican colleagues who very deliberately, uh, you know, employed the politics of, of hostility and, um, and, uh, you know, kind of, kind of played up the, the geographic divide, you know, and played up on that resentment or whatever of other parts of the state against Minneapolis and against the metro area. Um, you know, I mean, I have a lot of respect and, you know, friendship with past transportation chairs, Democratic transportation chairs, you know, for whom I served as kind of their lieutenants or their, you know, kind of lead urban voice. But I’m telling you, they were really hostile to Minneapolis and to transit into the interests of people that, that I represented. Um, and, and so, uh, you know, whenever anyone accused me of being partial to only urban interests, only transit, I was able to just lay it out for them. How our bills were always the most even-handed, the most fair, the most collaborative, you know, and, and I, and I will put any one of my bills up against every single transportation chair that came before us as the most even-handed that really took in the aspirations, um, and the hopes and the dreams of people who live in every corner of the state. Now, you know, that of course means that we’re making county commissioners happy all over the place, but we’re also making senior citizens and students, you know, and people who work second shift and, you know, people who needed other kinds of mobility in those communities where even their own elected representatives weren’t advocating for that sort of thing for them out in Greater Minnesota and the economic centers around the state.
[00:45:12] Frank: Right. And we, we, we just bent over backwards even against some of our own, uh, world views, um, you know, making sure that, uh, you know, roads were taken care of and, and greater Minnesota.
[00:45:27] Scott: But also making sure that there’s active transportation funding out there, there’s safe access to school, there’s transit and paratransit, right? You know, and that, and that they’re able to design local roads in a way that accommodates everyone, um, you know, those sorts of things.
[00:45:42] Frank: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a myth that, you know, transit isn’t a need or an issue in greater Minnesota. It really is.
[00:45:50] Ian: Let’s talk about MnDOT a little bit. So, um, your, your advocacy, you know, work before entering the legislature was very like, okay, we’re, we’re fighting a highway expansion. MnDOT is, is the enemy here, the bad guy. Um, many transportation activists today in 2025 are still frustrated with MnDOT. Um, what do you think needs to change in order for that relationship to feel more collaborative?
[00:46:16] Scott: When we passed the, the bill in 2023, part of what I had hoped we could also do at the time was really institute some really groundbreaking reforms in how exactly MnDOT goes about its work. And we did do some of that. And that’s, that’s the package of policies that Larry Kraft was championing around, you know, VMT reduction goals and making those really matter in a, in a meaningful way. So that’s, that’s, that’s pretty, pretty groundbreaking and it’s going to have a real effect once it really starts being implemented.
[00:46:54] Frank: Only Colorado and Minnesota have laws like that.
[00:46:57] Scott: But, but I really believe that we need to fundamentally change the culture and the mindset. That’s hard to legislate, of course. They’re driven by what we call level of service, LOS, which is more faster, you know, a lot more throughput, a lot more cars, a lot faster cars, you know, you know, and that’s, you know, the proxy for safety in, in their own minds. It’s just, you know, it’s just how traffic engineers are trained. They have a hammer they’re looking for a nail. And so I’m working on a package of reforms that we got started on last year. And we’re going to continue to work on this year to really require the Department of Transportation to be more robust in their analysis. So that means we have a more meaningful engagement with the community from way before we start actually drawing lines on a piece of paper, writing down scoping statements, that sort of thing. That means that we have a much more robust team of professionals who have different professional perspectives, like, you know, planners and economists and, you know, and, you know, people who bring different perspectives to the work of identifying what needs to be done and what’s possible in this area. You know, we make sure that people are out actually walking around and really looking and spending time physically present in those communities and doing walking tours and walking inventories. So there’s a different analysis, different set of professionals, different criteria and standards to which, and different metrics to which they’re going to be held to account level of service. The only thing that they’re trying to improve, they have to improve overall access to destinations for all of the people who need to be able to get where they need to go in that area.
[00:49:01] Ian: Frank, you’ve, you compared us to Colorado a couple of times because of the VMT reduction, you know, mandate. One thing that Colorado is doing that we haven’t done is, you know, they have the Bustang: state run intercity buses, right? Like, is that part of the conversation here in Minnesota? Like currently we’ve just kind of let the private sector pick up all that.
[00:49:24] Frank: I think it should be. You know, you can get many places that you need to go intercity wise in Colorado through a state, the Colorado Department of Transportation owns and operates this. And, you know, I’ve taken it before and it works. It works well and it’s popular. And, you know, I could see a state sponsored intercity bus system. Over time it’s gotten worse.
[00:50:05] Scott: I just had this conversation this morning with a Rochester city council member, as a matter of fact.
[00:50:10] Ian: Yeah, anytime that I want to go to, like, you know, the Med City Meander bike ride, like, I have to take Groome Transportation to get down there. And, like, those are vans. Like, I’m not bringing a full-size bike on that.
[00:50:20] Frank: That’s expensive also.
[00:50:24] Ian: Right, yes. Yeah. Frank, what does somebody, what does one do after a career in the legislature?
[00:50:30] Frank: I’m working on some climate and sustainability issues for the city. You know, I’m not done working. And, you know, the city wants to get more involved with the public utilities commission conversations, which is a good thing. You know, what I’ve learned over the last few months is that, you know, when a municipal entity weighs in, it matters. And, you know, there’s a lot of, you know, whether it’s transportation electrification or, you know, building efficiency, promoting geothermal. These are all items that are, you know, before the PEC. And, it’s important to weigh in. You know, like the Met Council, it’s not an elected entity. And yet it has vast powers and influence over, you know, energy policy. And, you know, implementing the 2040 renewable plan is critical. I mean, again, we can pass laws that are important. But, you know, how they ultimately get implemented is really the key piece of that. You know, I’m glad that, you know, the Metro sales tax seems to be, you know, kicking in. I think our transit system would have been in dire straits had we not done that. So it does seem to be, you know, working. But again, you know, we need more resources than just the sales tax for that. So, you know, implementing what the legislature does is critically important because we’ve done some great things over the last three years or so. But how ultimately that plays out is, as Scott said, you know, a lot of it relies on, you know, people in these agencies having some vision.
[00:52:36] Ian: Yeah. So are you working in the non-profit sector right now?
[00:52:41] Frank: I’m a city employee.
[00:52:45] Ian: Oh, okay, okay. Thank you for your public service, right?
[00:52:50] Frank: Yeah. I mean, I think it was important. I hadn’t planned to retire or retire. But, you know, I’m learning quite a bit about, you know, how these systems work.
[00:53:06] Scott: But he’s also got a new granddaughter.
[00:53:09] Ian: Aww.
[00:53:09] Frank: It’s been nice. We go to Boston every couple months. And once in a while, they come here. But it’s easier for my wife and I to go to Boston where they live. And a few months old and doing, you know, just every few weeks just takes another leap and bound in terms of, you can have a conversation with her now. She loves buses, interestingly. Her ears perk up when we say “bus.”
[00:53:41] Ian: That’s excellent. Raising her right. That’s for sure. All right. Any other pressing thoughts that I didn’t get a chance to ask about?
[00:53:52] Scott: No. I mean, just getting back to the, you know, the social justice economic opportunity piece and the vision. There was a really important piece of research that came out of a consortia of universities a few years ago, really looking at, you know, what is one of the key public policy interventions around addressing poverty and, you know, really connecting folks to middle class sustaining jobs. And, you know, all the things that we do that we think about in that realm are important, you know, making sure that people have safe, stable lives and making sure that we have great schools and, you know, et cetera. But transportation came out as the key, the key, the most important intervention. So that’s the whole access to destination, transportation and secure, transportation challenged and disadvantaged. If we can connect folks, you know, either bring jobs closer and education and other opportunities closer to where they are or at least get them access that’s affordable and that’s convenient to what they need in their lives, especially decent, good paying jobs. You know, of course, we need an economy that functions better and well for everyone to address a lot of the disparities, you know, and all this wealth concentration is a big part of the conversation. But transportation connections for people safe and convenient, whether through transits, you know, through, you know, other kinds of modes: fundamental. And I’m really hoping that becomes an increasingly bigger part of this conversation, just as we’re talking about education, workforce training, you know, housing, child care, retirement security, all of that transportation. And we need more. You talked earlier about, you know, maybe folks who are listening to this podcast themselves are going to step into public service. You know, I will just, I’ll just tell you, the bench in the Minnesota Senate for folks who really focus on transportation is quite narrow. There’s a couple of us and, you know, my colleagues are fantastic, but they’re working on a lot of other really, really important things. And so we need folks who really get it and who can really dig in and really be a part of forming and shaping policy in the Senate. So please step up, step up the public service.
[00:56:38] Ian: Scott, Frank, thank you so much for coming on the show.
[00:56:40] Frank: Thank you so much for having us. This was a great discussion!
[00:56:45] Scott: Yeah, really enjoyed it.
[00:56:47] Frank: Thanks for your public service!
[00:56:49] Ian: Aww. And thank you for joining us for this episode of the Streets.mn Podcast. The show is released under a Creative Commons attribution, non-commercial, non-derivative license. So feel free to republish the episode as long as you are not altering it and you are not profiting from it. The music in this episode is by Eric Brandt and the Urban Hillbilly Quartet. This episode was hosted, edited, and transcribed by me Ian R. Buck. We’re always looking to feature new voices on the Streets.mn Podcast. So if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [[email protected]]. Streets.mn is a community blog and podcast and relies on contributions from audience members like you. If you can make a one-time or recurring donation, you can find more information about doing so at [https://streets.mn/donate]. Find other listeners and discuss this episode on your favorite social media platform using the hashtag #StreetsMNPodcast. Until next time, take care.