Metro Transit has overhauled what their network will look like over the next couple of years, and they are looking for your input! Dive deep into the details with us, and provide official feedback by the end of the day today!
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Attributions
Our theme song is Tanz den Dobberstein, and our interstitial song is Puck’s Blues. Both tracks used by permission of their creator, Erik Brandt. Find out more about his band, The Urban Hillbilly Quartet, on their website.
This episode was edited and hosted by Ian R Buck, and was transcribed by Stina Neel. Many thanks to our guests Lesley Kandaras, Adam Harrington, and Ian Gaida. We’re always looking to feature new voices on the show, so if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [email protected].
Transcript
[00:00:00] Metro Transit Announcer: Comment today on our proposed future plans for Metro Transit. Go to metrotransit.org/network-now before November 15.
[00:00:14] Ian B: Welcome to the Streets.mn podcast, the show where we highlight how transportation and land use can make our communities better places. Coming to you from beautiful Seward, Minneapolis, Minnesota, I am your host, Ian R. Buck. Metro Transit has announced one of the biggest overhauls to the Twin Cities transit system that we’ve seen in my lifetime, and they are looking for feedback on it.
To get the full picture today, we’re going to chat with both Metro Transit staff and with a transit activist. Let’s jump right in.
[00:00:44] Adam: Adam Harrington, I’m the Director of Service Development at Metro Transit and our department does the planning and scheduling for our bus network and our train network.
[00:00:54] Lesley: And I’m Lesley Kandaras, the general manager at Metro Transit.
[00:00:59] Ian B: Sweet. So we are chatting about the Network Now–I guess at this point it’s still a proposal, going through public review. Of course, by the time this episode comes out, uh, this episode will be coming out on the morning of November 15th, so any listeners who are listening to this on the same day have less than 24 hours to go and have their, their public comments be heard.
Uh, if you listen to this after launch day, uh, then you’ll just get to find out with the rest of us what the final version of this gets, ends up being.
[00:01:32] Adam: Well, let me add to that. Yeah, that’s true, the official close of public comment for this project is November 15th, but we’re always taking comments from customers.
People call in, they send emails, and we fold all of those things into consideration when we’re thinking about making some sort of scheduled change or operational change. I’ll offer a couple examples of really large things we’ve done in the past. Uh, we had a practice over probably a 15 year period of really taking chunks of our system and quarters, we’d call them sectors and we do a restructuring study and a series of engagement and feedback.
And some of those were centered around Blue Line at the time, Hiawatha LRT opening Green Line, which was central corridor opening. Northwest Metro, really looking at the quadrant of the system, but this is the first time we’ve really looked at the entire system and what’s the opportunity for us to grow and address some of the changes in the travel market that we’ve experienced over the last four years.
So it’s really a great time because so many things have changed in the last four years. The timing couldn’t be better in terms of additional funding with the sales tax that was. Approved last year in 2023. So now we’ve got some confidence in moving forward to be able to grow our system and really good ways.
[00:02:53] Ian B: So let’s, let’s hear some of the big, the highlights, right? What are the, what are the best of, uh, of this, this network now? And like, what’s the philosophy behind it?
[00:03:03] Adam: Well, I’ll start with the philosophy because when we look back over the last year of our work, it was really a, that was really a pivotal year, 2023.
We had just come out of a really difficult couple of years of operator hiring and workforce hiring and retention, and it started to turn the corner on adding new operators and workforce to Metro Transit, which really enables us to add more service back. So at that time, we’re asking our customers and stakeholders what their thoughts are on how we could change our system.
We had a number of routes suspended. For the last four years, 53 of them, most of those were commuter express because back in 2020, we had stay at home orders. We’re trying to manage the situation with the guidance that was before us and people who had an option to be remote, which were primarily our downtown commuters.
Uh, that’s where we really thin things out. And that seemed to have stuck for that period of time for a couple of reasons. One, because that office work didn’t come back on a regular schedule in person. And because frankly, we weren’t growing our workforce enough to bring any of those things back either.
Well, after four years of that situation, people have made their decisions in a lot of ways. And we continue to work with the downtown employers to better understand that one, that segment of our market. It’s not the whole market, but. It’s one that is going to see the biggest change in our network now plan, uh, from the standpoint of we’re recommending the discontinuation of a number of these routes.
The flip side of it is, we’re also seeing growth in ridership on our local buses and our BRTs and even on LRT in the afternoons and weekends and evenings. And so we have this opportunity to really start to think about where else do we want to add service? So between the travel pattern changes, wanting to make sure we’ve got reliable service, workforce, Uh, we also have Metro lines coming in.
So next year in 2025, we’ll be opening Gold Line BRT in March 2025, B Line on Lake Street and Selby in June, and E Line in December. So we’ve got a lot of things in the, in the works right now, and we’re really anchoring our proposals around those transit ways that we’re programmed.
So trying to fit all those pieces together is really, uh, what the network now concept plan attempts to do.
[00:05:34] Ian B: And that, yeah. So not only are we coming off of like the pandemic, big shift in, in ridership patterns. But also, as you said, like opening big lines, you know, the, the, the flagship, you know, LRTs has been in the past a reason for us to really rethink things and yeah, one year where we have three different BRT lines opening, like that’s pretty huge.
[00:05:57] Adam: Right. And the, the bookend to that, and this is a key part of Network Now is 2027. When we open the Green Line LRT extension, which will be great. This is one of the cornerstones of how we put all of our pieces together, especially in the Southwest Metro between Eden Prairie and downtown Minneapolis, building those connections in.
So, uh, it’s a really great opportunity for us to think about what are all the pieces and how fast can we grow? This is one of the questions that we’ll continue to grapple with a little bit is how fast can we grow? Uh, is really at the speed of workforce growth at this point for the next two years.
[00:06:34] Ian B: So the, the Network Now, you know, if somebody goes to Metrotransit.org/network-now, uh, and takes a look at the materials that are there, there’s a lot of stuff, right? Big documents, PDFs that I tried to load one of those PDFs while I was riding a Metro Transit bus and it did not go very well. Uh, they’re, they’re big files. Where should somebody start, right? If they want to grapple with this Network Now proposal and they want to understand, like, how is this going to affect my life?
Like, where can I even start thinking about what kind of feedback I have for this? What, what do you two recommend that people look for in those, in those reports?
[00:07:14] Lesley: Well, maybe I can start and I in answering this from the perspective of a rider, I went right to the routes I use the most and read the appendix, you know what is in store for those routes.
And so I think that’s one entry point. Uh, if there are routes, people frequent or are most interested in, uh, but. I know Adam will probably have better, more technically correct advice than that. But I’ll say that for me was one easy entry point.
[00:07:42] Ian B: Yeah. And I appreciate that those pages that are about a specific route, it doesn’t just stop there.
It does give some information about like, you know, oh, hey, here’s the 64 and it is being changed in these ways. But here are some other routes that are going to be added in that area, you know, that are going to also change the ways that, that this, this works.
[00:08:05] Adam: Yeah, I agree. And from a writer perspective, if you know what you’re looking for, that’s a great way to do it, to just say, what happens to my route?
But if you want to get the whole picture, the executive summary is a good place to start to, to say, what’s the, what’s the big picture of what’s going on here? I think it’s pretty digestible. It’s only a few pages. Uh, so that’s a good place to go to, um, if you’re wondering. Well, how did they come to these ideas?
What, what kind of input do they have? And I have to say there was a lot of input. So there’s a building, building the foundations report that’s also there. That’s really a culmination of feedback from 6, 000 comments. We get back in 2023, the performance analysis of all the routes, the policy implications.
How do we design our system? All those things are there because as I’ve gone around and talked to people over the last couple months. They want to know, well, how did you end up, how did you end up in this place? What, why did you recommend this? How come my route’s not coming back out?
You know, can you give me more in this area? And I’d really like a connection between this route and that route. And that’s really helpful because for riders and when Lesley and I are out riding, you can actually know what you want. And we want to hear it too, because that’s really helpful input for us.
This is a proposal. This is what we think makes a lot of sense to us, but we really do want to hear back from people because all of those things go back in and we can really adjust our framework and thinking about. How do we want to move forward in the next couple of years?
[00:09:36] Ian B: So the main statistic that, that I’ve seen getting promoted first, like in the executive summary and stuff is, is, you know, we are expanding service by 35%.
I don’t really know what that means. Like, what is, what is the metric there? Does that just mean that like we have buses on 35 percent more of the time, or are we serving 35 percent more population? Like how are we measuring this?
[00:10:00] Adam: That’s a great question, and we did grapple with that a little bit. What’s the right unit of measure that might be meaningful to people?
Uh, and you’re right, it’s about how much service is on the street. We could have measured number of trips, an estimated number of trips, but really how much service is on the street? How much time are we putting out there? And so it’s 35 percent more service hours worth of time. So that’s what you see on the schedule for your bus or train route.
And that’s the unit of measure. And then we’re comparing to what we’re calling current is really the end of 2023, uh, service level. So we’re comparing 2019 where we were at the end of 2023 to where we hope to be at the end of 2027.
[00:10:44] Ian B: Got it. Yeah. And that’s, that, that would be the same metric that was used.
You know, when we had our quarterly service updates a couple of times in the last few years, where it was like, oh, we increased by 10%, I think, you know, each time. Yeah. Okay, cool.
[00:10:59] Adam: Yeah, you’re talking about how we give updates to the Council’s Transportation Committee.
[00:11:05] Ian B: I think so. I think I was seeing these numbers also in some of the Network Now, like, you know, giving context towards this this change.
Yeah,
[00:11:13] Adam: that’s right.
[00:11:15] Ian B: Um, so we were talking earlier about, you know, some of the suspended routes, uh, during during covid and, um, Network Now is now formally, you know, um, Officially declaring some of them canceled. Uh, it’s bringing back some other ones. Are there any that are still in limbo?
[00:11:33] Adam: The choice was made one way or the other, and the feedback we get from customers and stakeholders will help inform.
If we make changes to that.
[00:11:41] Ian B: Got it. And what does that mean for like the bus stops? You know, I, over the last few years as I’m traveling around and every time that I see one of those stops with the yellow, you know, pasted on the over that says buses do not currently serve this route, you know, and it’s like, it makes me feel really sad knowing that like buses used to be here and now they’re not.
[00:12:02] Lesley: Yeah, no, absolutely. One’s Network Now is uh, finalized that does allow us to remove stops where the decision has been not to continue service on there because you’re right. It’s just a constant visible reminder of that. And we’re looking forward to being able to move forward.
[00:12:25] Ian B: We talked about staffing a little bit and, you know, the fact that as, you know, more staff are being hired, that’s allowing, uh, more, more service to be put back into place.
Um, I’ve also, I remember from a long time ago, uh, an episode that we did about how to retain staff. One of the things that came up was, you know, things like split, um, uh, split shifts for, for bus operators is like really hard for a lot of people to justify. Um, so since we are deemphasizing the, you know, the, the peak commute time periods, does that mean that we have, like, are, are we able to have more operators who have like, you know, a consistent, uh, One block of time that they’re working during the day?
[00:13:10] Lesley: Earlier this year, we developed a document called Metro Transit Forward, which is our strategic framework, uh, guiding our work, uh, really centered on what we consider to be our mission, which is connecting people, strengthening communities, improving lives. As part of that, we identified three strategic priorities.
Employees, experience, and service. And we named employees first because we know to do all the other elements of our vision, we need to have a strong, well supported workforce. So it’s really a center of the work we’re doing now. And, uh, so, Specific to how that translates into how Adam’s department schedules work.
There are improvements that we’re able to make, uh, for the reasons you are, you’re mentioning. So I will hand it over to Adam to get into some of those details.
[00:14:02] Adam: Yeah. So you, your observation is right. That if you think back to 2019 and decades prior. We had a very rush hour oriented commute pattern in our system.
And so a lot of that service was conducted by part time operators or people working split shifts to cover those AM and PM rush hours. Well, a lot of that has gone away because there’s more midday service and longer, I’ll call them blocks of time that operators are working. And so one of the things that we’re focusing on is how can we make the work that we give to our bus operators better schedules for them.
And so for our department, it’s really looking at what’s the recovery time at each end? How is that work scheduled across the day? Uh, and so there’s a lot of different pieces, pieces in it that we’re evaluating. Um, but the other thing is. Uh, that requires some different kinds of part time work on weekends and middle of the day as well to try and expand those, those different markets.
But yeah, the retention part of that is really important for us. And we want to continue to grow, uh, our workforce and make sure they’re well supported as, as well.
[00:15:13] Lesley: And maybe just one other piece of that. One of the practices we’ve started over the last, uh, year or so is holding, uh, employee town halls at all of our work locations.
So employees have direct access to Adam and me and other, uh, people making decisions here at Metro Transit to share their experiences and make sure we’re aware of the conditions in which they’re, uh, doing their work. So that’s been another way, uh, we’ve been, uh, working, uh, closely to support our employees and make sure that we’re, um, including their feedback in these decisions we’re making.
[00:15:52] Ian B: That’s awesome. Let’s talk about, uh, late night service. So I grew up in St. Paul. I’m not a night owl, right? I, uh, usually do not try to ride the bus after, like, 9 p. m. Uh, but, you know, during the pandemic, even even I was noticing, like, the how how cutting late night service was impacting my life, right? Um, especially, like Union Depot, uh, you know, arriving on the Amtrak and realizing like there are no Green Lines that, that are leaving after, after I get home, uh, you know, it’s, it, it really felt like a squeeze.
So, um, what’s our approach to, you know, I know we said afternoons and evenings, but like, do we have any 24 hour, uh, routes anymore? Like what does the late night look like?
[00:16:40] Adam: Well, I want to go back to your workforce element of those two, because if you recall back in 2021 and 2022, this is a time period where we are really constrained by honestly a shrinking workforce and the challenge of hiring people back.
So that way, we needed to schedule our work that fit within a timeframe of the operator workforce we had. So that meant those early morning and late evening trips had to be paired back in order to manage a reliable service that we could deliver to our customers. So that’s one piece of it is what’s the workforce component for us so that we can both have an operator for the schedule, but also the maintenance staff and everyone to be able to maintain the fleet for bus.
Um, now I of course have experienced this experience, the same thing. And I’ve heard also from other customers the desire for more late night service. And it’s something that we’re going to continue to look at and see how we can stretch that envelope of time a little bit more. I know from being in downtown, there’s both the customer side of it, where you’re at a bar restaurant or a play or something, and you want to get back.
But that’s not good. I don’t know if that last trip on my route is going to be there. So I’m going to Uber or whatnot. So I understand the implications to that side of it, but then there’s also the employee side where I’m working at this bar restaurant or theater, or maybe it’s not even in downtown. It’s at a uh, a second or third shift at a light industrial business. So, uh, we understand the challenges and it’s, it’s for us to really figure out how we can continue to extend that envelope and both, both, both provide the service, but also make sure that we’re providing a secure environment as well.
[00:18:23] Ian B: So in the Network Now proposal, like how, how many routes do we have that serve, you know, that like at post midnight kind of timeframe,
[00:18:32] Adam: there are only a handful and If you’re a long time rider from St. Paul, you’ll recall we used to have Owl Service lineups at midnight. 1:00 AM 11:00 AM 11:00 PM midnight, one 1:00 AM and in Minneapolis, same thing on the hour in downtown. We don’t have that right now, beyond midnight or one. So, uh, there’s only a handful. Orange Line, for example, is one of those, uh, Route 18.
We have a few others, uh, but. It’s something that we’re, we need to balance how we add service over the next couple of years. But I hear that loud and clear from a lot of places that people have a desire for more later evening service.
[00:19:16] Ian B: Speaking of the Orange Line, um, the Orange Line has spoiled me. I, ever since it opened, um, I have.
Like found myself making more and more trips down to like, you know, the REI in Bloomington or going down to Burnsville for like Buck Hill in, in, you know, the wintertime. Um, and simultaneously, like I live in Seward, right? So, and my parents are off in the, on the East side of St. Paul. So like the 94 is the route that takes me towards their house quickest.
And. It did not take long for me to realize like, man, I wish that the 94 came as often as the orange line and actually ran on weekends. Right, you know? So I was very happy when I saw that like the 94 was being improved, you know, as part of network now, and I was overjoyed last week when it was announced that the Gold Line was going to be, you know, extended to Minneapolis and, uh, replace the 94.
So, um, I guess first, very simple question is that Gold Line extension, since that’s happening in 2027, are we going to be rolling that into the Network Now, like, reports?
[00:20:26] Adam: Yes. Yeah. So for Network Now, the timeframe, again, it’s, uh, we started out with ending it in 2027, But I think what we’re learning is that there are some things that we want to continue to add into the framework of growing our system and some of those things also fall into 2028 from a program standpoint, like the G Line Phase 2 on Robert Street.
And when we think about kind of the restructuring of routes, that’s part of what we have to think about too. So yes, Gold Line Extension will be part of it. And, uh, So that’s a big announcement that you’re excited about, but don’t forget, we’re also adding a lot more service to Orange Line on December 7th.
So now that we’ll be operating 20 hours, seven days a week, between 5 AM and 1 AM every 15 minutes and every 10 in the rush hour. So that’s a big, big deal. And we’re going to continue to ramp up on the 94. So we’re going to every 20 minutes on the midday on route 94 on weekdays. And we really hope to add weekend service over the course of the next couple of years as well.
[00:21:28] Ian B: Yeah, and those two things together, like, have greatly expanded, like the neighborhoods that I’m willing to think about moving to, you know, because like, like my parents are on the East Side and most of my friends are in Uptown and you know, until now it’s like, those felt like worlds apart, uh, and then all of a sudden like, Oh, if I can just hop on an Orange Line and then get on a Gold Line and they both come frequently enough that it’s like, it’s no big deal.
Anytime a day, like that’s awesome. Let’s chat about micro. So, um, Metro Micro. Formerly known as Metro Transit Micro. Uh, the pilot program in North Minneapolis, uh, has been awesome. You know, I, I work at the, uh, North Tech Center, which is attached to North High School. So I’ve made use of it for getting to and from work a few times.
I’ve used it to take like students on field trips. Uh, I think it’s pretty awesome. Um, I’m yeah, excited to, to see these, what, what is it? Six more, uh, service areas announced?
[00:22:28] Adam: Eight more.
[00:22:30] Ian B: Okay, um, and those are all out, you know, in, in suburbs from, from first ring suburbs, you know, all the way out to like, we’ve got what Minnetonka.
Um, and, uh, those are areas where you expect to see a, Micro Transit, uh, service more than, you know, in the core of the cities. So, uh, how, how were those, the, the eight that we’ve announced so far, how were those ones selected?
[00:22:58] Adam: Well, it’s a great question and I get it a lot because there’s so much interest in Micro everyone from the core Cities, all the way out to the third, fourth ring communities.
And it’s, we’re really looking at it to leverage access into the system. So, these areas have been identified because there’s either a transitway connection there, where there’s high frequency Metro line, either operating today or going to be operating in the future, or there’s a high frequency local service, limited stop service that can connect into the rest of the system.
So rather than providing more access where we already have good service, we’re focusing on areas where we can draw people into the system, the fixed route system, where perhaps a fixed route service can’t be as effective in reaching all the locations that people want to get from or to in lower density environments.
[00:23:51] Ian B: Yeah. And so, so the first two that are opening, uh, this year.
[00:23:56] Adam: Almost.
[00:23:57] Ian B: Only, only two months here, right?
[00:24:00] Adam: We’re almost, we’re almost this year. We’re going to be in January for the opening of Woodbury and Roseville area microzones.
[00:24:07] Ian B: Got it, got it. Yeah. So those two anchored by, you know, the A Line and the Gold Line make perfect sense.
Um, what are, what are some of the other like flagship fixed routes that are, that are anchoring those, uh, service areas?
[00:24:22] Adam: Sure, so I’ll, I’ll go right around the clock, starting from Woodbury, that’s connecting the Gold Line, as you mentioned, and then as we go more towards the 5, 6 o’clock area in the region, so that’s Mendota Heights, at Robert Street, the Dakota County Service Center, that’s where G Line will be operating in Phase 2 in 2028.
And then on over into Bloomington, 35W and 98th will be the kind of anchor point for Orange Line for that additional microzone. And then back up towards about 9 o’clock is where Minnetonka connects with Green Line LRT. And then moving up to Brooklyn Park, Starlight Transit Center, where we’ve got a lot of high frequency service that comes from Brooklyn Center Transit Center and ultimately Blue Line Extension.
We’ll connect there and then over to, um, Northtown. So we’ve got a number of different areas that we think are ripe for improving access, and we can also learn from the travel patterns that people take on these microzones because we get good information on how often someone wants to go between point A and point B.
And if it’s the same connection, how can we improve the service there? And how can we also learn about what we’re not serving because people will tell us and on the app, you can find out, Oh, I really wanted to go to this business, or I really wanted to go to this grocery store, but you’re not. So that helps us as a feedback loop as well.
[00:25:53] Ian B: And the mVTA, uh, used their, like, data from their connect microservice to inform their current BRT study. I think if I remember correctly, yeah.
[00:26:04] Adam: Right. And so we have an opportunity to, to learn from MVTA and Southwest Transit and Maple Grove. And Plymouth, because they’ve been in that suburban environment for much longer than we have.
So we’re looking forward to connect with them on lessons learned and what we can all improve upon.
[00:26:21] Ian B: Yeah. Um, speaking of learning from them, uh, and this is definitely beyond the purview of Network Now but, um, One thing that I really appreciate about MVTA Connect is that it’s, it’s built into the trip planner that they have in their app and being able to, and of course that trip planner doesn’t just do MVTA buses, right?
Like I can plan a trip from my home in Seward. Take the Blue Line down to get onto the 400 and whatever, whatever, you know, and then connect to an MVTA Connect bus, uh, you know, and, and, and it automatically calls the bus for me and everything. Like, uh, are we planning on implementing any of that kind of thing in like the Metro Micro, uh, app
[00:27:08] Adam: Yes. We, we actually have a new software vendor for our app that’ll be starting with our new services. That absolutely has the ability to integrate with our trip planner, so you should be able to do that. And that’s, again, one of those things that we learn as we go. And each time we open a new Metro Micro Zone, we’ll be testing new boundaries for what the software can do for us and learning, understanding that market a little bit better.
But having that connection. And again, it’s really to make that integrated connection between fixed route and micro want to make it seamless.
[00:27:41] Ian B: Yeah. Um, is it safe to assume so, so Metro, uh, uh, Network Now is not all going to be implemented all at the same time, right? Uh, there it’s, it’s, it’s planned. It’s just a summary of like, here’s all the plans that stretch out to 2027, 2028 ish.
[00:27:57] Adam: Right. Um, right.
[00:27:59] Ian B: So I imagine that, and correct me if I’m wrong here, but like the, the micro service areas that are being implemented, are those going to be coming into service around the same time that like the, you know, the new lines that are supposed to be anchoring them are coming online?
[00:28:16] Adam: That’s the thinking behind the sequence of those. So our plan is to add two per year. So we’re doing, well, might be four in 2025, depending on how we can arrange, um, our service plans. Uh, but yes, so we want to sequence those with what’s coming online. We want to make sure that, for example, Minnetonka is ready to roll either on or well before the Green Line extension operates.
And, uh, at the same time, we already have Orange Line operating in Bloomington. So we’ve got to think about how we can prioritize those different zones. Because, again, everyone’s interested. And we want to make sure our, our other services are successful as well.
[00:28:56] Ian B: Awesome. Um, those were all of the, the major things that I wanted to talk about.
Did the two of you have anything that you’re like personally excited about with, with Network Now?
[00:29:07] Lesley: Personally, I’m. excited that we’re at this point with Network Now. It’s been great to see how many people have engaged with the plan, sent us comments. Uh, so that’s, uh, just been a great process and we encourage, as Adam has said throughout this, that people continue to communicate with us on the plan and their experience riding transit generally.
Uh, and Network Now is a major initiative we have underway, but it’s part of several uh, projects and efforts. We continue to advance, you know, we continue to make progress on Implementing our safety and security action plan, growing our transit rider investment or trip agent program. Uh, we now have roughly 50 trip agents out on our system having just kicked that off in February and looking to grow it to 100 in 2025.
Uh, we have a lot of facility improvements planned, of course, and this is related to Network Now, but just looking ahead to next year and launching 3 bus rapid transit lines. That’s more transit ways than we’ve ever launched all in 1 year. You know, one single year. Uh, and so, um, just, it’s a pivotal and exciting time here at transit and Network Now is a big part of that.
[00:30:20] Adam: Yeah. It’s really exciting to think about both the, the addition of service. It’s, it’s really great. And we’re getting good feedback from people. It’s always a good touch point to connect with our customers too, when we’re doing projects like this and just reconnect with some of our stakeholders again, and, uh, establish some good connections on the feedback loop.
[00:30:43] Ian B: And I, I, I mean, it feels so good to be at a point where I like, I feel optimistic about, about our transportation system, you know, both public transit, but just like in general, in, in the Twin Cities, uh, like exciting things are afoot. We seem to be going in the right direction. It’s getting easier and easier every year for me to live without a car.
Uh, And like, I love it. I, you know, even like pre pandemic, uh, you know, it was like, okay, yeah, transit, I can use it, but like now it’s like transit, I’m excited to use it.
[00:31:22] Adam: Yeah,
[00:31:22] Lesley: it’s so good to hear. Thank you for saying that Ian. It’s really good to hear that. And, uh, we know we have a lot of work ahead of us, but, uh, just really appreciate the engagement.
Of riders and people we hope will become riders, uh, as we continue to make improvements.
[00:31:39] Ian B: Awesome. Adam, Lesley, thanks for coming on the show.
[00:31:43] Adam: Much appreciated Ian. Thank you very much.
[00:31:52] Ian B: And now we’re going to chat with Ian Gaida, one of the volunteers who helped Move Minnesota, write a response to Network Now, which was crossposted on streets. mn last week. Ian, you’ve been, yeah, like, I mean, a lot of the pieces that you write, I mean, you have a wide range of topics that you do, but like a lot of the ones that, uh, have caught my attention a lot are the ones where you’re like making grand sweeping recommendations to Metro Transit about like, here’s what you should do with your network.
So you clearly, like, you think about this a lot. You also do the same thing for like Amtrak, right? You know, like large, like large scale, local scale, like you think about it all. Um, this isn’t your day job though. So like, who the heck are you?
[00:32:36] Ian G: Yeah, my day job is actually in engineering. I have a degree in physics.
So most of my life, this has all just been kind of a hobby. My dad got me into like, trains and model railroading when I was really young. And then naturally that kind of expands into the realm of passenger rail roads and light rail, and then to the buses and biking and all the rest of it.
[00:33:00] Ian B: Yeah. And, um, and I mean, frankly, like I’ve learned a lot about networks and how to, you know, how to think about it all connecting together from a lot of your, your, uh, articles, um, and you were working with Move Minnesota to put together.
Uh, a written response to the Network Now, uh, proposal. Can you tell me a little bit about, like, how that process went?
[00:33:29] Ian G: Uh, sure. You know, it probably won’t surprise anyone here that, uh, people involved with Move Minnesota and people involved with Streets.mn, We all kind of fly in the same social circle.
So me and Tim and Connor and Jeremy were all just kind of, uh, chatting with each other in the Discord server we all share. Uh, eventually someone at Move Minnesota reached out and was like, Hey, would you want to volunteer to help come up with our official response to the Network Now plan? I see you guys have a lot of thoughts about it.
And we’re like, yes, absolutely we would. We do have a lot of thoughts about it.
[00:34:02] Ian B: So, yeah, so what are our, like, what are our responses? What are our recommendations at the, at the high level here?
[00:34:09] Ian G: Uh, so at the high level, you know, we like to see these changes. These are all good changes, even if we might quibble about some of the particular routes, but well, you know me, that’s, that’s how it is.
That’s my bread and butter,
[00:34:23] Ian B: but I just had flashbacks to the article about like the number system for the entire system.
[00:34:30] Ian G: We didn’t get that deep into it. Thank God. So yeah, you know, we enjoy, we like what we’re seeing. But this needs to be the first step, right? If you look at the numbers presented in the document, this is about 10 percent more service in 2019. The Twin Cities region has been growing at about that rate since the year 2000 So that implies that this funding is, you know, just about keeping up with regional growth. If you exclude Micro Transit, you know, From the, uh, service hours. It’s only about 2 percent growth since 2019.
[00:35:07] Ian B: Interesting. Okay. Because yeah, like the, the number that, that Metro Transit has been like advertising is 35%, right?
[00:35:13] Ian G: I think that’s over a current service.
[00:35:15] Ian B: Oh, okay. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, so there’s, there’s like there’s service hours, but then there’s also like, how well do those service hours align with the needs of the people who live in the Twin Cities?
Right. Right. So like. How well do you think we’re doing on those priorities, you know, they’ve they’ve talking a lot about how they’re adjusting especially suburban service, you know consolidating it around like fewer Park and Rides you know, but then and also like We’re getting more frequent service for a lot of the local routes, which is like, you know, like those seem to make sense to me.
Uh, what’s your take on it?
[00:35:57] Ian G: Yeah, absolutely. Um, we definitely like to see the emphasis on local, the more core intercity routes, uh, as opposed to the suburban commuter services that haven’t really bounced back since COVID.
[00:36:11] Ian B: Yeah, I just took a bus down to Lakeville the other day and there were like five of us on it.
It was great. Right. Um, I, I mean, the thing that I have become a big fan of personally is, the Orange Line, right? It gets me from, like, the uptown area down into the suburbs very, very quickly. Like, and the key there is that it does it more quickly than I can go on my bike, right? Right. Quite often when, like, when I’m making a decision about how I’m going to get somewhere, if it’s within, like, a 30 minute bike ride, chances are, like, there aren’t any buses that are gonna get me there.
Quicker than I can bike, you know, and that’s just, you know, for, for me personally, it’s like, oh yeah, if all things are equal, if the amount of time is equal, like I’m probably going to bike because I enjoy biking, but then like, if I’ve got a bus, that’s going to take me all the way across town to my parents place on the east side, you know, in 30 minutes less than it would take me to bike then it’s like, well, obviously that’s the choice, right? So like having the Gold Line extension be announced seems huge to me in terms of like just Expanding what is possible for people who aren’t using a car? Mm hmm. I’m like, I’m really curious to see in the future like where else we can take the highway BRT model, right?
Um There isn’t a whole lot more of that in the Network Now. You know proposal directly, but
[00:37:43] Ian G: yeah, they’re kind of is the key express network Um, I like I don’t think this made it to the blog post But we’re all kind of a bit disappointed in that because the midday frequencies on that are just not great and that range from like an hour to two hours.
Yeah
[00:37:58] Ian B: Yeah, and that’s what and that’s the reason that like the Orange Line has worked for me is because it has Frequency. I mean, currently the frequency isn’t amazing, but like it is all day, you know, it never drops off the way that the express buses do. Um, Also, I’m just like, it’s delightful that I get to, you know, pay local service fare on that service.
Yeah. Um, which is actually something that I have thought about with like the 94 is like, if I happen to be getting on the 94 during express. During rush hour. I’m like, why am I paying more for worse service? Because like, it doesn’t have dedicated lanes on I 94. So like it goes slower because there’s all this congestion, um, you know, that may change in the future, depending on what the Rethinking I 94, you know, ends up being, but like, I, I can’t imagine us doing like, I can’t imagine the end.
Point of that project, not involving transit, having some dedicated lanes of some kind, at least. Right, right. So where am I going with this? I don’t know. I like highway BRT. I’m, I’m like, I’m itching to have more of that. Yeah. I want like, that is, that is the thing. And it’s like the most cost effective way.
That you could rapidly expand, like the number of places that I can get too quickly in the Twin Cities. So, yeah. Um, let’s bring it back to Network Now, though.
[00:39:33] Ian G: Well, yeah. And I guess to wrap it back in with like the key express network again, what you’re essentially is getting, you know, the highway BRT frequency just without, I guess, the fancy branding and some of the nicer features like off door fare collection, all door boarding.
Right. But the bare fit of that is. You know, you just stick a sign in the ground. That’s your bus stop and you start running buses.
[00:39:55] Ian B: Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and like I mean as we saw during the pandemic, like frequency is something that can be taken away from you immediately. But also that means that frequency is something that they can just give to us immediately.
Right. Without having to have a whole process of like, we’re going to reconstruct, you know, we’re going to build new stations and have all these fancy features. And it’s like, well, no, you know, if you just, uh, put more buses on the route.
[00:40:19] Ian G: Well, and even then, if you put, this is maybe getting off topic now, but if you do those
infrastructure improvements. You can still have frequency taken away from you.
[00:40:27] Ian B: Yes, that’s true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and I, that even happened with the light rails, right. Which is like, Oh, that is infrastructure that’s not going anywhere. Yeah. You know, those are tracks. Right. And yet. Would you reduce the frequency to the point where it’s like, you know, I’ve moved to Frogtown because of the 10 minute frequency of the Green Line.
And then it was, you know, like, it just felt like a normal, you know, Local bus, you know, like we were down to 15 minute frequencies. So, yeah. Um, have you like, when you’re looking at the full network of changes, right? There’s a lot of routes that. You know, they’re, they’re consolidating the different branches that the routes take, you know, there are some areas that aren’t served by a route anymore, but then, you know, Metro Transit has made sure that there are other routes that are going to be added to those areas.
Like what’s your, what’s your take on those types of changes? Like, are, are, have you noticed any places where there’s like. It’s going to be a problem.
[00:41:30] Ian G: Um, we, we definitely noticed that, uh, and you know, this isn’t Metro trains, it’s fault, obviously. Uh, they definitely weren’t ready for the Riverview and Purple Lines to just completely fall apart.
[00:41:42] Ian B: Yeah. I mean,
[00:41:43] Ian G: which, you know, that happened while less than a month after the report came out.
[00:41:46] Ian B: Sure. Sure. That’s yeah. And, and I suspect that they’re probably going to revise the report a little bit. I mean, like with. With the Gold Line extension being announced and that’s going to happen in 2027. It’s like well Why wouldn’t that be part of the report?
Um, you know, so I imagine that they can also take into account like riverview Officially being canceled the Purple Line is still a thing But it’s theoretically it’s way up in the air about like what the heck it’s gonna be right? Yeah, so, um I mean, wouldn’t it be amazing if they just like turned around and did the same thing with Purple Line, like, yeah, we’re going to put it in the Purple Line and then we’re going to extend it down to the airport.
[00:42:24] Ian G: I don’t doubt that’ll happen, but that’s, that’s going to be tricky.
[00:42:28] Ian B: Yeah. It’s, it’s a little bit less straightforward than consolidating with Route 94. Because route 94 was already like, Oh, it’s just on a highway. It has a single stop in between the, between the downtowns. Um, so yeah, I remember in the report or in the, in the Move Minnesota response, uh, calling out a couple of places where like the G line is planned to be started up, but not 10 minute frequency that all of the other ABRTs are.
Right. Um, The Red Line continues to piss me off. Me too. Yeah. Like what, like, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, I, I don’t think that the Red Line really needs to be a part of the metro system.
[00:43:14] Ian G: I, I don’t either. I know, you know, part of these federal funding agreements is, they have to have their own distinct branding and whatnot, but the Red, the Red Line opened what? 2009?
[00:43:26] Ian B: Yeah. And, and, I mean, it was. Like it exists because it was one of the leverage points for getting the funding for reconstructing that highway um and Like what does that mean that we’re saddled with forever? Like do we do we have to have this? this bus that you know, the service agreements, like it doesn’t dictate apparently that it has to be like super frequent, but it has to have this distinct branding and I don’t know.
Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. It also wasn’t always operated by Metro Transit. Like it was an MVTA route for the longest time. Um, so yeah, it’s, I feel like we’re, we’re in a different place now with people’s understanding of like the transit system, like customers understanding of the transit system than we were when the Red Line first opened.
So, and, and it doesn’t really fit with like the way that the transit system is being presented to people. Right. So like, I feel like one, like we have to go one direction or the other. I would love to see the Red Line having better frequency. I would, I mean, It doesn’t go that far. No. It only goes to the Apple Valley Transit Center.
Like, like is there somewhere else we could extend it to?
[00:44:38] Ian G: They’ve been talking about extending it further down. 77 for forever. Mm-Hmm. down to like the center of Apple Valley or, um, Lakeville maybe. Yeah, some, somewhere down in that general vicinity. I don’t know that area that well. .
[00:44:53] Ian B: So, I mean, we, we have a lot of critiques for the, for the Network Now. . Right. Um, as we should. I mean, it’s, it’s good to be like giving feedback and trying to make. The whole system as good as, as, as we can. Um, Ian, is there, is there anything in the network now proposal that like really excites you?
[00:45:10] Ian G: Yes. Just all the expansion of local transit service, all the increased frequencies, like you go through it, like every other route, it’s like, Oh yeah, this is getting a frequency boost and this is getting a boost and this is getting a boost.
And, you know, some of them have longer service hours and whatnot, and that’s great too, and additional weekend service. So just all the, all the, I guess, bread and butter changes that are in there, you know, just improving the network as a whole.
[00:45:37] Ian B: Right, right. Yeah. It’s yeah. Here we are like talking about all these high concepts, like long range stuff.
[00:45:44] Ian G: And it’s like, that’s not what this is about.
[00:45:46] Ian B: This is really like, yeah. Bringing the basics back to you know, like not just competent, but like, you know, being a really good, consistent system. Yeah. Uh, and that’s, that’s kind of how you have to start, especially with like, I mean, you and I think about this all the time and ride the buses fairly frequently.
But how do you attract more people back to the system and you know, it’s it’s just getting those basics, right? Yeah, so Yeah, I’m definitely glad that they are like focusing on that in the network now proposal How do you feel about Micro Transit?
[00:46:27] Ian G: Um, you know, I’ve never actually used it. Okay, so I guess it’s hard to say I’m my preferences for fixed transit service.
I find that personally easier to navigate because it’s just, you look up the number, you look up what time it shows up and you go, whereas microchance that you have to, oh no, you have to call someone every millennial’s worst nightmare.
[00:46:51] Ian B: Well, but like millennials are very comfortable with like using an app to hail a thing. Right. You know, and it’s like, um, We do this not just for like, for ride hailing, but also like, I mean, Uber Eats exists because it’s like, Oh yeah. People want to just like click a couple buttons and like have the food come to them. Right. Having a pilot program in North Minneapolis was. I think kind of a funny way to go about it because like, it’s a very different environment than the other service areas that they’re trying to spin up.
I have a lot of confidence that the suburban like service areas are going to go well because like that is much more the environment where microtransit shines. And it seems to me that the service areas are not too large, right. They’re, they, They’re not falling into the trap that Southwest transit has put themselves in, which is like, you know, having a giant sprawling service area.
And then it takes forever for like those buses to get anywhere. So like, I mean, it seems like, yeah, Metro Transit understands that like, yeah, you have to have a contained service area. You have to anchor it with high frequency, reliable fixed route service, you know? And it’s like, yeah, I, you can, you can see that this is still supporting a regional transit network of like, yeah, if, if I want to get a long, like a, go a long ways, then I’m going to take Metro or microtransit to a fixed route service.
That’s going to take me fast to somewhere else, you know, and those are like the high capacity routes, right? So we’re like, you know, we’ve got all these nodes, we’ve got fixed connection between the nodes. And then if you’re going from a node to somewhere near the node, But it’s too far to walk, then like, that’s where microtransit is there for you. Um, so like, that makes perfect sense to me. Um, now, of course, that’s on paper. Yeah. And we get to see over the next few years, like.
[00:48:52] Ian G: How people are actually using You know, like, like we say in the report, that’s kind of, the neat thing about microtransit is, you know, it does have a sort of, throw whatever can up there, see what sticks. Kind of quality to it, where. You can track these routes. You can track, you know, where the drivers are driving to and try to figure out, Hey, does it make sense to run fixed route service here in the future maybe.
[00:49:14] Ian B: So this, uh, so these network improvements are like made possible by the three quarter cent sales tax that we got passed two sessions ago at the state level.
So we’re taking advantage of, of those new resources. Right. Um, and these are resources that are going to be like a stable, like they’re going to be there for us, right. In the longterm. Um, so like this is step one. Um, we’ve been talking a lot about future steps that we would love to see. Um, is there anything else that like that Metro Transit needs to be doing to, to like maximize these resources or. Like, are there more resources to be unlocked on Metro Transit side? Or is this mostly a, like, Oh, the serve, the, you know, the, the agency is receiving these things and like, now they can just do their work.
[00:50:09] Ian G: Right. Yeah. It’s more of the second one, you know, okay, great. We’ve got the new sales tax. We see what we can do with it. Now let’s look at what the next step beyond that is, you know, tying, tying it all back to where we started. Where this is, you know, just about keeping up with rate of population change in Twin Cities Metro. If we do want to get significantly more mode shift, we need to start looking at, you know, what’s the beyond that.
How do we, how do we accelerate that growth beyond just, you know, population change and that involves, you know, something we’ve noted in our discussion is all these new high frequency routes, pretty much de facto up zone a whole bunch of Minneapolis and St. Paul when they happen, because there’s certain requirements as to, you know, how high you can build in proximity to rapid transit route and what that means and so forth and so on.
[00:51:01] Ian B: And those are, I mean, those are, Uh, based on city level legislation that’s happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a really fun tool that we have at our disposal. Isn’t it?
[00:51:13] Ian G: That’s, that’s kind of my personal philosophy is, uh, you know, the infrastructure is what should be, you know, driving these changes, not just, you know, you can’t really build up the dense mixed use housing without, you know, good bike networks or good transit networks or anything. If you try to. You know, build that up in suburbansprawl hell, it’s all just going to fall apart. It’s immediately going to collapse in on congestion. So transit really needs to be the starting place for that, in my opinion.
[00:51:40] Ian B: Well, I mean, it is kind of a chicken and egg problem of like, Oh yeah, if you, if you try to put like a high frequency transit, you know, route in a place where there’s not the density to support that. Then it’s like, you know, you have to have a plan of like, Oh yeah, we’re going to follow this up immediately with something, you know, something else that will take advantage of that and also support it. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I guess, yeah, all of the, the resources that like Metro Transit can have a proactive role in unlocking is it’s all about like new starts, right?
When we have a big flagship, like project that requires a lot of infrastructure upgrades, like that’s when federal money, state money can, you know, get, get it’s involved, right? Right. And. And obviously that’s not what Network Now is about. No. Right. Yeah. Right.
[00:52:36] Ian G: But that’s sort of, you know, thinking like where, you know, the original question is, where do we jump off from this point?
We’re talking about, okay, it’s a good first step. What’s the next steps? That’s sort of, I think the thought process there is, okay, now that we’ve got the local service to and above pre pandemic standards, you know, where should we be looking for our next round of rapid transit upgrades?
[00:53:01] Ian B: Right, right. Yeah. And that’s, I imagine. I mean, we’re, they’re designing Network Now based on data that we’ve been, you know, have about current ridership, but then of course, keeping an eye on. How that ridership shifts in response to Network Now, you know, like where does it make sense to like, will those, will those resources make sense in slightly different places than we are seeing right now? Right. Who knows? We’ll see. Any
other, any final thoughts here about Network Now?
[00:53:33] Ian G: I guess the one thing we didn’t talk about is expanding service hours. There’s still no commitment to bringing back 24 hour service, which I think is a mistake.
[00:53:42] Ian B: Yeah, I agree. I, I mean, in like 24 hour service, you don’t have to have a huge amount of staffing to have like the bare bones 24 hour service, right? You know, you have, you can do like what, five different routes per downtown area that do like a pulse, like once an hour kind of thing. And like, It’ll get you home. Yeah Yeah, they’ve got like specific branding around that right like the night owl service, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah But like I I haven’t seen that logo around anywhere in ages
[00:54:21] Ian G: and it it went away in with the Covid cuts in 2019. Everything I’ve heard suggested be the last thing to ever be brought back. And even in this plan, they still not talking about bringing it back.
[00:54:34] Ian B: Right. Could I, could I say, Hey, this is a 24 hour bus with four hour headway between midnight and 4am.
[00:54:41] Ian G: I mean, if you did that, then yes, we’ve got plenty of 24 hours. The last run for most buses is about, you know, one, maybe 2am if you’re lucky. And you know, they start up again sometime between five and 6am. Even just like two more frequencies to bridge that gap every, you know, was that 75 minutes, maybe hour and a half?
[00:55:04] Ian B: Okay, yeah. But you, so you would say that like hour and a half is probably the maximum amount of time between buses that you would say is still considered like it’s active. Yeah Yeah, all right, so Network Now does not say anything about Improving frequency or anything for now for Northstar, right?
[00:55:23] Ian G: No, I think they say that’s like outside the scope of it I think cuz it’s an intercity rail,
it involves MnDOT to some extent or something I don’t know. But there’s still other easy opportunities for better Northstar integration, I think. You know, stuff like, you know, there’s some bus routes that go very near to Northstar stations, but don’t actually reach them, which makes transfers difficult.
You know, maybe set up like a microtransit zone in Anoka or Ramsey or something.
[00:55:53] Ian B: So, yeah, so one of the microtransit zones is in Coon Rapids, but I can’t actually tell if that service area is like centered around the Northstar station.
[00:56:04] Ian G: I don’t think it is.
[00:56:05] Ian B: Is it like, is the Northstar station even within that service area? I should hope so.
[00:56:10] Ian G: It should be, I think.
[00:56:11] Ian B: Is the Northstar station currently like, does it connect well with any of the fixed route?
[00:56:18] Ian G: No none of them do
[00:56:19] Ian B: Yeah. Right. Like, like, what are we doing here?
[00:56:21] Ian G: Right. There’s easy, I’ve written about this in an article way long ago. There’s easy opportunities for us to better integrate the North Star with the rest of our transit network that we’re just not taking.
[00:56:34] Ian B: Mm hmm. Yeah. Like, Downtown Anoka does okay with Northstar integration. Mm hmm. Though, all of the bus routes that I can think of up there, like, are they serve a similar purpose of like, oh you get to and from downtown Anoka into Minneapolis from there, right? It’s just slower but more frequent Than the North Star.
I think it I think it’s probably fair to not be getting too ambitious with the net with the Northstar for network now, but like, but you’re right. I mean,
[00:57:08] Ian G: even give us something,
[00:57:09] Ian B: give us something. Yeah. Um, it’s, I mean, it’s the only service of its type in our area and like, And yeah, you could say like, Oh, that makes it like the, the weird, like the black sheep of the system. But it also means that like, this is a unique opportunity. Like, right. It is. An outstanding piece of infrastructure, right? It’s like way higher capacity, way higher like speed. . Than anything else that we have. Like why are we not taking advantage of this? Right. Um, and like, you know, yeah, it does have pretty low ridership currently, but like a lot of that is because like for the last five years, it has been an unusable service because of the, because the frequency was so low. And like, that’s something that we can change immediately. Right. Just like all the rest of this frequency, you know, upgrades that we’re doing.
[00:58:08] Ian G: So I believe, yeah, we can, I believe we still, the service agreement would be BNSF still allows us to go up to like pre COVID frequency.
[00:58:16] Ian B: And what was that frequency?
[00:58:18] Ian G: Uh, I believe it was six round trips a day on weekdays, with one reverse, and then three round trips a day on weekends.
[00:58:27] Ian B: Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I could get behind that. I would use that. I would. Alright. I think that’s a wrap on Northstar. Alright. Sweet.
[00:58:38] Ian G: Awesome.
[00:58:39] Ian B: Ian Gaida. Thanks for coming on the show. Uh, I can’t believe that this is the first time that you’ve been on the show.
[00:58:45] Ian G: I know we’ve been talking about it, but just haven’t found an excuse.
[00:59:00] Ian B: And thank you for joining us for this episode of the Streets.mn Podcast. The show is released under a creative commons attribution, non commercial, non derivative license. So feel free to republish the episode as long as you are not altering it and you’re not profiting from it. The music in this episode is by Eric Brandt and the Urban Hillbilly Quartet.
This episode was hosted and edited by me, Ian R Buck, and was transcribed by Stina Neel. We’re always looking to feature new voices on the Streets.mn podcast, so if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [email protected]. Streets.mn is a community blog and podcast and relies on contributions from audience members like you.
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