Weed: From Law to Implementation

Despite Minnesota recently legalizing weed (famously accidentally at first), it has taken a long time for cannabis products to become available. Producers Stina Neel and Sherry Johnson dive into the long process of local counties and cities creating ordinances and policies in response to new state laws.

Attributions

Our theme song is Tanz den Dobberstein, and our interstitial song is Puck’s Blues. Both tracks used by permission of their creator, Erik Brandt. Find out more about his band, The Urban Hillbilly Quartet, on their website.

This episode was co-produced by Stina Neel and Sherry Johnson, transcribed by Stina Neel, and was hosted and edited by Ian R Buck. We’re always looking to feature new voices on the show, so if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [email protected].

Transcript

[00:00:00] Sherry Johnson: Stina, we’re here to talk about the devil’s lettuce,

[00:00:03] Stina Neel: the jazz cabbage,

[00:00:04] Sherry Johnson: the pot,

[00:00:05] Stina Neel: the weed,

[00:00:06] Sherry Johnson: the doobage,

[00:00:07] Stina Neel: the wacky, do we say wacky tobaccy?

[00:00:09] Sherry Johnson: No, we did not. We’re also here to talk about Mary Jane.

[00:00:12] Stina Neel: Oh yeah?

[00:00:13] Sherry Johnson: Greenery,

[00:00:14] Stina Neel: grass,

[00:00:15] Sherry Johnson: the marijuana,

[00:00:16] Stina Neel: THC,

[00:00:18] Sherry Johnson: the sensinia. What do you think? You ready to talk about safety meanings?

[00:00:27] Stina Neel: Absolutely. Safety meeting.\

[00:00:29] Sherry Johnson: let’s go then.

[00:00:33] Ian R. Buck: Welcome to the Streets. mn podcast, the show where we highlight how transportation and land use can make our communities better places. Coming to you from beautiful Seward, Minneapolis, Minnesota, I am your host, Ian R. Buck. Minnesota recently legalized weed, famously it was accidentally at first, but a lot of cannabis products still aren’t available for purchase in the state.

Our producer, Stina Neal, has gotten to see at her day job what the process is like for local counties and cities to implement ordinances in response to new state level legislation, and why that takes a while. So she and fellow producer Sherry Johnson sat down in the studio to chat about it. Let’s dive in.

[00:01:15] Sherry Johnson: So we’re talking about legal weed in the state of Minnesota. Uh, so it was August 2023 when the state made way for legal pot in Minnesota for what they call adult recreational use. Uh, what has been your professional journey into the world of legal cannabis? Uh, what is your current role?

[00:01:35] Stina Neel: Yes, so my journey into weed from a law perspective did not begin in Minnesota, it began in the beautiful state of Colorado, which as you know, 11 years ago, almost exactly to the date, they legalized it.

They were the first state to legalize recreational cannabis use. At the time, I was working for Colorado State University, which is a federally funded institute, and I was working in student life, meaning I was working directly with undergraduate students living on campus.

[00:02:06] Sherry Johnson: So there was a lot of, uh, dime bags around at the time, is what you’re saying.

[00:02:12] Stina Neel: Uh, I’m sure and I mean Some of those Colorado kids could definitely afford more than dime bags. And as a federal funded institute, you have to obey federal laws on campus. But then when things changed at, uh, statewide, it was learning about the laws and explaining them to students, not in a way to be like, hey, if you don’t want to get in trouble, you should just keep your weed at your friend’s house, but also making sure that they know that like, you cannot consume, you cannot have it on your person.

You cannot have it in your dorm room. If your car is parked off campus, that is your property and it’s off campus. That’s fine.

[00:02:51] Sherry Johnson: About what year was this, Stina?

[00:02:53] Stina Neel: Uh, so that was in 2014 when it was legalized. And I was working there until 2016.

[00:03:01] Sherry Johnson: And there was a lot of freaking out about the way that the laws were rolled out there as well, right?

[00:03:06] Stina Neel: Our first little green elephant in the room is how did we get here? So do you mind if I give you a quick?

[00:03:14] Sherry Johnson: I would absolutely love that. Yes What yeah, what what is when that what on earth has been happening? I remember we waited for so long just to get adult legal cannabis and my spouse and I had moved to Seattle where it was legal, Discovered it because we were we were rule foulers, and then we moved back here, and guess what?

It’s not available. And then we were so excited to hear it was going to be available, and now what? We’re still in this weird gray zone. What’s been going on?

[00:03:42] Stina Neel: So to read an article from, uh, 2022, it says, Minnesota just sorta, kinda, almost legalized weed. And that was when they We colloquially say they accidentally legalized edibles.

Right? So it was, you have to be 21 years old. Uh, and this was a GOP controlled Senate at the time. It passed through a committee meeting in May. There was like no debate, no objection. And Senator Jim Abler, the Republican chair of the Senate Human Services Reform Finance and Policy Committee, said, This doesn’t legalize marijuana.

We didn’t just do that. And his counterpart said, Are you kidding? Of course you have.

[00:04:32] Sherry Johnson: And this is hemp? Hemp derived THC?

[00:04:35] Stina Neel: Yes. So that was hemp derived THC, which is It’s a rather intensive process, um, so maybe we can, this is going to be a super quick overview. So if listener, if you are already an expert in this subject material, you can skip ahead a little bit, but to talk about where does THC come from.

So cannabis, cannabis sativa is the plant family. And that includes the plant hemp, which, uh, our founding fathers grew.

[00:05:05] Sherry Johnson: It makes a nice rope.

[00:05:07] Stina Neel: Right. It makes a nice rope, cloth. You can make concrete, paper, all kinds of things.

[00:05:11] Sherry Johnson: Yeah. But like the, the, the stoners in high school for Gen Xers, you may remember they used to do reports.

All the reports were about hemp. Yes. And its many uses, right? Right. Okay.

[00:05:23] Stina Neel: And then for those of us in the 90s who went to summer camp, this is what you made your friendship bracelets out of, and no, you cannot smoke those. You cannot get high from a hemp product. However, it is a very, very intensive process to break down that hemp plant, and you can get trace amounts of THC out of that.

And that’s what was legalized, was taking those trace elements out, and then mixing and mashing them into tasty little treats. Like hard candies, gummies, chocolates, etc. Yes. Where the other plant is the cannabis that does contain THC in much higher quantities. Um, and that’s where we get most of our THC in. Medical, and then now new legalized. Um, hemp also has some other cannabinoids in it. Like, that’s your CBD. That’s what a lot of people give their dogs, the puppy pot. That calms them down. Those are the things that they put in lotions and things. Makes you feel a little bit more chill. Not necessarily the Cheech and Chong high that people are familiar with.

CBG, which is a different cannabinoid, and that one is more of kind of an uppy feeling. It’s not quite a caffeine, but it is more energy.

[00:06:39] Sherry Johnson: That must have been the one that I got a contact high at a concert for and couldn’t sleep after the concert. Okay. There’s a lot of CBG in that apparently.

[00:06:47] Stina Neel: Right. Okay. And then, yeah, and then people get into all the details, into the weeds, as it were, of is something cannabis indica versus sativa?

That’s just. They’re different strains and then they even break down the strains even farther and that’s how they get fun names like Maui Waui, Pineapple Express, all that stuff. So if you’ve ever heard of those terms, it’s all connected in the world of cannabis. Right.

[00:07:13] Sherry Johnson: Okay. So now you are currently an expert of sort as well. You didn’t just work on campus. way back in Colorado. What is your position right now and your relationship to all that’s going on right now?

[00:07:28] Stina Neel: Yeah, I work as a land management planner and in my office. I’m in a semi rural County we found out pretty quickly that of the four of us in my department one of us has had any sort of experience working with Legal marijuana.

I think some other folks have maybe had some past experiences with it at like a concert or something. But I was the only one who had experience from a law perspective and then just like being around it in Colorado. Mhm. So. Mhm. Becoming a, an expert in a field that you weren’t really expecting to talk about at work was interesting.

But I think the awkwardness only lasted, I don’t know, a couple weeks. Gotcha. Um, so August 2023.

[00:08:20] Sherry Johnson: Yes.

[00:08:20] Stina Neel: Right. So this is when legalized recreational marijuana in Minnesota on a large scale. So not just the little gummies that come from hemp.

[00:08:30] Sherry Johnson: Right. The good stuff. Yes. As it were. Yeah. Okay.

[00:08:33] Stina Neel: The high quality kush.

[00:08:35] Sherry Johnson: Enthusiasts have been impatient with the state of Minnesota here on rolling out their rules, the journey for prospective retailers. My understanding there’s been a lot of drama with the rollout. What is taking state and local government so long to green light all of this stuff?

[00:08:52] Stina Neel: So when it was legalized at the state level, it was Honestly, it was pretty quick, where in Colorado, it was brought to the table multiple times before it was legalized, and it seemed like it was very, very quick.

It was passed 71 to 59 in the House, and 34 to 33 in the Senate, right? Often we see states, it comes up multiple times, or it’s something that’s voted on as part of the election, meaning the residents vote on it. And so people have this idea of what it’s going to be way beforehand. And I think the information wasn’t there unless you knew where to look.

[00:09:36] Sherry Johnson: So a lot of the regulations in other states may have been more baked in, and now we’re kind of having to back up and put them in.

[00:09:42] Stina Neel: Right, exactly. Then, implementing it. So it’s enough to sign it into law, Governor Tim signs it May 30th, 2023 and you may notice that now where we are talking in January 2025 There is not a dispensary in Minneapolis in this sense.

[00:10:03] Sherry Johnson: You have to you have to go that my understanding is that native reservations Indian reservations can actually sell this stuff. What is, what is am I wrong? Can you tell me about that?

[00:10:16] Stina Neel: Correct. So several tribes operate dispensaries in Minnesota on specific reservation land. Okay. Um, so there’s one up in Leech Lake. There’s one on White Earth Nation. Probably like the biggest, most famous one is the one in Red Lake currently. It’s just like super organized. Okay. And, I mean, University of Minnesota had to become a research center of cannabis in 2023 because we We were like, well, what do we do? They’ve just signed this into law.

And from a county perspective, it was, we know that we’re going to have to have some sort of ordinance. We need to have some sort of local laws because that was what was written into statute.

[00:10:59] Sherry Johnson: There’s both land use and sort of safety concerns and keeping it out of the hands of under 18 year olds and things like that.

[00:11:06] Stina Neel: So most communities first ordinance was just you cannot consume it in public places, meaning you can’t even open a bag of gummies at the park. This needs to be a in your private home only. That was like the first thing and that was super, super easy for places to. Immediately just say, yep. So then, so that was the 2023 legislative session is when they legalized it.

And then in 2024, the legislative session, that’s adult use cannabis in Minnesota. And that’s the regulatory framework over the entire cannabis industry. And that’s where now counties and communities had to start getting involved of what is our ordinance going to look like. And we knew that we had to pass something quick.

And we were like, do we want to rush through this? This is spring and summer of 2024. Do we want to rush through this and pedal to the metal, crank out an ordinance and hope that it’s good enough? Or after talking to lots and lots of our neighboring communities. County is all over the state that had this kind of semi rural vibe that that we do at my job and We’re like, well, we’re gonna do a moratorium and a moratorium is a scary word, right?

[00:12:18] Sherry Johnson: Yeah,

[00:12:18] Stina Neel: people think that that’s like well, what does that mean? A moratorium is simply a pause and that’s a you have to pause For a reason and our reason was we haven’t done the research. We don’t have sister communities that are, That have ordinances, we want to make sure that we’re aligning with the region, we are within the greater metro area, we want to make sure that we’re aligning with counties to the north, south, east, and west, and we want to do this right.

And so an ordinance has to have an end, or a moratorium has to have an end date. And ours was January 1st of this year, of 2025. So we gave ourself like six or seven months. And how far did you get? Uh, so we adopted our ordinance in November of 2024. Pretty early on in November. Cause we wanted it to be polished and we had plenty of time for public comment, taking it to the townships and the cities that are within the county to make sure that we don’t want to have to edit this next year. We want it to be one and done.

[00:13:18] Sherry Johnson: Nice. Alright. And then I also understand that there was this move of the medical cannabis certification team. So there was folks that was, that were using the good stuff, uh, who needed it for medical purposes. And all of them had to get certified through this medical cannabis certification team at the state.

But part of what’s going on too is that they were moved into the Minnesota Department of Health. And that did not go well. What happened?

[00:13:43] Stina Neel: Yes. So medical cannabis certification used to be through the Department of Health. Yeah. And it was through the Department of Health for a very long time. Medical cannabis has been around much, much longer.

And then they moved to a newly formed Office of Cannabis Management that we’re going to probably just call OCM from here on out, creating a brand new government agency from scratch with very little time, resources, and You know, an element that was passed very quickly, uh, at the legislative session. It hasn’t gone smoothly.

They have had a number of directors, they’ve had interim directors,

[00:14:26] Sherry Johnson: um, And they currently have an interim who’s not interested in being director. Right. Right.

[00:14:32] Stina Neel: Yeah. Which is fun to have someone publicly say that. Like, I didn’t actually really want this job, but I’m doing it. Um, I think that’s good. That’s honestly kind of nice, that kind of strong honesty from a Minnesotan.

[00:14:45] Sherry Johnson: Yeah, yeah, that’s true, actually.

[00:14:48] Stina Neel: So suddenly, people who are relying on a medicine, having to change their certification, working with a department of people that they’ve never worked with, while also dealing with a medical condition that’s requiring them to use a substance that lot of the country is like, whoa, it’s super messy.

[00:15:10] Sherry Johnson: And I know, I know. A lot of folks, like ran out to get. Their their, their pot prescription re upped before all of this happened, um, and a lot of people did not end up getting their meds, uh, fully through that month, I think it was. Um, yeah. So it’s not been great. And then like five of the eight staff quit apparently too.

Yeah. Okay. So, getting a new state agency up and running is hard, um, okay. So. So, then I understand there’s all this like, certification of retail establishments, just to even get the doors open on places to sell this stuff. But then there’s all these other categories that also have to be regulated and managed.

So when I think of legal weed from my time living in Seattle, I imagine, These retail locations from fancy boutique showrooms to small bodega shops with counter service. Um, what are all the different license types in addition to those types of places?

[00:16:08] Stina Neel: Um, follow up question. So, so you’ve been to a dispensary before?

[00:16:12] Sherry Johnson: I, I have, yes.

[00:16:13] Stina Neel: I have also been to dispensaries, um, in both Minnesota and in Colorado and, and they are very different. In Colorado, you show your ID before you can even get in the door and then you are in this kind of like waiting room and then you kind of get a like a personalized shopper who looks at the glass case with you and then there’s your bud tender.

It’s this very, very kind of high end but also highly secure. Yeah. You’re like. This is both, like, intimidating and I feel very secure doing this. Um, and they’re, like, asking you, like, what kind of vibe you want and whatever. In Minnesota, it’s a little bit more friendly when you walk into a pot shop. It’s still very secure, but it’s more conversational and there’s other shoppers in there with you.

[00:16:54] Sherry Johnson: Right. So that’s what the hemp derives so far. So now, now it’s gonna, now those same places are gonna, hopefully. Be able to open soon with the quote unquote good stuff. Yes. Yeah, uh, I remember, um, I am not a big user, but I know people who are, and the first time I ever walked into Seattle Dispensary, I was surrounded by Chihuly glass level bongs.

Literally everywhere in this fancy, fancy store and then, yeah, that kind of counter service with a menu. There was like a three ring binder menu of different experiences. Uh, yeah. So is that where we’re headed?

[00:17:29] Stina Neel: Probably, honestly. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen packaging on any of the hemp derived, uh, things at the moment.

It is, there’s a surprising amount of math. Um, about, you know, there’s, there’s Delta symbols. There’s all of these things that tell you like how many percentages of different cannabinoids and different compounds are in your tasty little treat.

Um, and we see that a lot with. When people buy flower, so flower is the bud.

Think of what you would see in a bag in like a movie or in real life where that’s like the that’s the smokable product is called flower and Even that will tell you like this is the name of where it is. This is where it was grown Here’s the percentage of THC in it So that what they’re really trying to do is make sure that if you are choosing to get high you are only get the amount that you want

[00:18:24] Sherry Johnson: And that was some of the issues I’ve heard about the hemp derived THC is that there’s a lot of other stuff in there that can give lots of folks headaches and stomachaches and things like that.

So it seems like the supply is going to get better. So now there’s other types of the four, 14 businesses, there are

[00:18:42] Stina Neel: 14 businesses. So on the medical side, this is the easy part. There’s medical. Cultivators, processors, retailers, right? Processor means they get the stuff that grew and they turn it into the stuff that you purchase.

So that is, you know, filtering out the seeds and the twigs and all the other stuff and then packaging it into weighed baggies and things. Retailer is exactly what it sounds like. It’s a store. Then there’s the medical cannabis combination business, I believe is they are like processing and retailing in the same place.

Okay. But from. And the recreational side, you have processors, cultivators, retailers, there’s micro business versus mezzo business.

[00:19:29] Sherry Johnson: What the, what? I know. Wait, mezzo, mezzo business? Mm hmm. Is that like a mezzanine floor?

[00:19:36] Stina Neel: Uh, not quite.

[00:19:38] Sherry Johnson: Okay.

[00:19:39] Stina Neel: Let me grab.

[00:19:40] Sherry Johnson: Help me, Stina.

[00:19:40] Stina Neel: Yeah, no. These are all things that I had to learn while we were writing an ordinance and then explaining it to elected officials who have, I’ve honestly probably never been around marijuana before.

So my job is to put this from legally’s legislative language into you and me language. Microbusiness is they cultivate and manufacture all in one place, right? Okay. So they have the grow room and the show room. And they, it’s a single retail location.

[00:20:10] Sherry Johnson: Okay.

[00:20:10] Stina Neel: Mezzo, a little bit bigger. So they cultivate, manufacture, package.

Um, they can have up to three retail locations and it’s just a bigger scale. So micro, like a micro brewery.

[00:20:25] Sherry Johnson: Oh, sure. Yeah. Um, except it’s a mezzo brewery in this case. Right. Right. Okay, cool. But they have to have three locations.

[00:20:33] Stina Neel: They don’t have to. They can have up to three. Up to three. Okay. Okay. Um, Manufacturer, they’re manufacturing cannabis products, hemp products, packaging, wholesaler, retailer.

Those are easy.

[00:20:42] Sherry Johnson: Wait, there’s like a Walmart of cannabis that is part of this? Like

[00:20:46] Stina Neel: Yes.

[00:20:46] Sherry Johnson: A wholesaler.

[00:20:47] Stina Neel: Mm hmm. So a wholesaler is they get all of the products from all over and then they sell them to the individual like small retail shops. So your hemp house down the road, they get theirs from a large scale hemp.

Um, Wholesaler.

[00:21:03] Sherry Johnson: Gotcha. And then there’s, okay, this is the one that got me, a Cannabis Event Organizer? What the heck is that?

[00:21:09] Stina Neel: So we’ve already seen a, a hemp event, um, so that was in Scott County. This was the Doobie Dabbler. So the same people, the same people who do the Beer Dabbler events, they do a Pride Dabbler, a Winter Beer Dabbler.

They did a Doobie Dabbler, which, uh, is a funny name because a doobie is a, is a, That’s a smokable. Yeah, um situation. That’s the marijuana cigarette as a doobie. Yeah, and This event there is no there was no smoking So we’ve seen bud gardens at other events too. There was one at pride last year.

[00:21:43] Sherry Johnson: Wait bud gardens

But like a beer garden. That is a bud. I Wow, I’m getting an education

[00:21:49] Stina Neel: Okay, so imagine like a patio with really high fences that you can’t see through. Uh huh Where people are standing around drinking THC seltzers.

[00:21:58] Sherry Johnson: And they can’t even, they can’t smoke, but they can drink THC seltzers.

[00:22:01] Stina Neel: They can drink THC seltzers and they can consume edibles.

That’s what it was this past year.

[00:22:06] Sherry Johnson: Okay.

[00:22:07] Stina Neel: Um, what that looks like in the future, we don’t really know yet. Um, but an event organizer is, so like those folks. They could have an event lasting no more than four days. That doesn’t mean that you are there as a partaker for four days, right? You don’t like. You’re not, like, sleeping there.

Um, but imagine, like, a music festival that is pot themed. Would be like that could be like a whole weekend. And that’s what the Doobie Dabbler was. I think it was a two day event.

[00:22:33] Sherry Johnson: Did the local government have to come up with regulations for that in addition to the state law beforehand, or were local governments probably freaking out trying to make room for this type of thing?

[00:22:46] Stina Neel: Yes to both. , but we have an event, um, event regulations in the ordinance where I work. I don’t know what Scott County’s were at the time, But having like a festival, like imagine like the Severs Festival, because that’s where it was, was the Severs fairground area. Okay. Can you imagine being in the corn pit? It just I’m just kidding.

I don’t think it was happening at the same time. I don’t think you could just lay in the corn pit and drink your seltzer and have a great time.

[00:23:13] Sherry Johnson: I mean, that sounds like a peak experience for a lot of people.

[00:23:17] Stina Neel: And So like we have some pretty strict ordinance of you know, you have to have fencing and parking and some sort of security measures

[00:23:26] Sherry Johnson: Was that true for events?

To begin with or was there a whole other layer added?

[00:23:30] Stina Neel: Yes, those are events to begin with. So we had to like register an event. Now, it is a lot more strict, meaning this is checking IDs of everyone, making sure that there’s wristbands, having medical personnel. You have to have like a certain number of medical personnel because you, when people are enjoying any sort of substances, there’s people who are gonna have a bad time.

[00:23:51] Sherry Johnson: Mm hmm.

[00:23:52] Stina Neel: Because it’s just the nature of Humans. We love to indulge. Yeah, like the security measures are just different when it comes to event organizers. And there are now people who are, they are professional weed event organizers. They host these all over. They’re all over the country and in Minnesota, we’ll probably have like essentially like a weed tour.

Wow. Where it’s a festival that travels to different communities.

[00:24:18] Sherry Johnson: Wait, we’re gonna see it like this? Okay

[00:24:22] Stina Neel: So imagine like a like music tour, but it’s just a weed festival for a weekend and you know one one week It’s in st. Paul and then you know a few weeks later. It’s up in near the North Shore

[00:24:35] Sherry Johnson: It’s like a traveling circus for your brain

[00:24:39] Stina Neel: Yeah, I don’t know if they’re gonna have like, you know, like groupies that are going to follow the tour, but maybe they will.

[00:24:45] Sherry Johnson: Well, that’s not, let’s hope there’s not carnies involved. Probably be okay.

Um, okay.

[00:24:52] Stina Neel: We also have delivery services and this is something that started during the hemp edibles phase two. And this was something that we had, this is unofficial in Colorado. So I was already familiar with it when I started here was people like, what do you mean you can get your weed delivered?

You can. You can absolutely get weed delivered to your house.

[00:25:11] Sherry Johnson: Wait, wait, right now in Minnesota?

[00:25:13] Stina Neel: You can. Yes.

[00:25:14] Sherry Johnson: Hemp derived or the good stuff?

[00:25:16] Stina Neel: Hemp derived.

[00:25:16] Sherry Johnson: Okay. Okay. Thank you.

[00:25:17] Stina Neel: Unless I think, uh, I don’t know on the medical side, but hemp derived you can, where it’s similar to if you’ve ever ordered wine or beer with Instacart.

Okay. So they won’t drop it off to you unless you give them your ID. So, like, the

driver will show up to your house with what you want.

[00:25:38] Sherry Johnson: So there’s some level of certification that you are going to agree to do this? And you might get random checks or whatever, kind of accountability.

[00:25:46] Stina Neel: But the new legislation has specifically delivery services.

So you could be a company that all you do is you are the door dash of weed, where you talk to the clients. They tell you, I want this and this and this from this store. You go pick it up and deliver it to them.

[00:26:02] Sherry Johnson: Seems like cyclists out there might want to take a look at this as a possible business venture.

Right. Just saying, uh, that might. Yeah. Okay. That might be amazing. Um, you know, Streets mn?. Uh, okay. Stop. Okay. So given all of that. Yeah. Okay. What has it been like for potential business owners of all these varieties? And I’m thinking especially about this social equity applicants area. Can you talk about that?

[00:26:25] Stina Neel: Yeah. So any of our establishments that have existing businesses. So there is a huge hemp farm near Waconia, right? Right. Because we’re. We’re recording this in the Twin Cities. I’m thinking of locally. There’s They’re a hemp facility. They’re making the rope and all the other things They don’t know what their future is going to be like because they have to do this really intensive application process They’re not a social equity applicant But then we have CBD manufacturer out in Carver County.

They don’t know What their future is going to look like. We have Places like Hemp House locally. I was talking to them a little bit about how do you get your your information from OCM and they’re like It’s tough.

[00:27:14] Sherry Johnson: Yeah, so the office of cannabis management and full disclosure I help small state agencies get started.

So I know what that can be like, but also like it’s Seems like there’s this They’re so busy sort of getting themselves started and doing all the admin that there’s a lot of folks that are just in this waiting period. And that’s what you’re talking about is like, they’re all of these folks that want to open a business selling the good stuff.

Their future is uncertain because they’re part of a lottery. Is that right?

[00:27:48] Stina Neel: Right. And then the lottery was essentially thrown out. Yeah. Yeah. So there was a pre approval process for the lottery that was designed to give a head start to folks like veterans and previously, uh, people previously impacted by marijuana laws.

[00:28:01] Sherry Johnson: So those are social equity.

[00:28:02] Stina Neel: Those are the social equity laws. Uh, a judge held that up in late November and then there were some application errors. So some people applied and they got told no. Um, and folks think that like, OCM should have given them a chance to correct application errors because I’ve looked at the application forms.

It’s very, very intensive. Yeah. Um, and if you’re someone who has not historically, uh, done government documents every day of your life, like perhaps you and I have. Yeah,

[00:28:36] Sherry Johnson: no, I have to recertify every couple of years. Mm-hmm . And it is the worst two weeks of my life, of any government document. So yeah. So these folks, especially in the social equity applicants category, were going through all of, jumping through all these hoops and some of them got denied and now there’s this new process, this that is somewhat attempting to address wrongs, but also not deny people that have already been.

Mm-hmm . Okayed?

[00:29:00] Stina Neel: It’s messy. Yeah. So, in December, they canceled the license pre approval process completely. Oh my gosh. And do we know what happened? Like what’s going to happen with all those applications, all of that hard work that people have already done? It’s like we don’t. So, at this point, we don’t really know.

[00:29:19] Sherry Johnson: My understanding is that they’re being put into the first, like they’re being cleared for the first round or something, if they’ve already gotten a yes, but then they still have to go through that extra layer of certification. Right. Okay.

[00:29:31] Stina Neel: And, I mean, allegedly, there were folks from out of state who may have been falsifying things.

So, everything had to be combed through with, With just even a finer tooth comb. Right.

[00:29:43] Sherry Johnson: Is this that straw buyers thing? There was, like, people were using, like, names of Minnesotans to get in the market or something. I don’t know. It just sounded really sus.

[00:29:56] Stina Neel: Right. That I don’t know, and I think I would have to do some additional searching.

But they were saying that this is putting us as, of all the states that have legalized marijuana, we are now the third slowest of going from saying, yep, it’s legalized, to the first retail store opens is painfully slow. Yeah. And that’s really, really unusual. Um, so what’s happening now? So the Office of Cannabis Management, OCM, uh, just January 13th, 2025, uh, they’re adopting expedited rules for Minnesota’s new cannabis industry.

What does that mean? There’s a PDF of the draft rules. It’s on public review starting. January 13th for a full 30 days. There is public comments

[00:30:49] Sherry Johnson: on just the rule making.

[00:30:50] Stina Neel: On making just

rule making.

[00:30:52] Sherry Johnson: Rule making, which everybody knows what that is, right.

[00:30:54] Stina Neel: Making, mm-hmm . Yeah. I mean, if we take a little gander at the draft rules, it is 131 pages,

[00:31:02] Sherry Johnson: jeepers.

[00:31:03] Stina Neel: Mm-hmm . And that includes everything.

[00:31:07] Sherry Johnson: I’m gonna need some greenery. Just thinking about that. Mm-hmm .

[00:31:10] Stina Neel: Right? I’m going to need a little tasty treat and going through all of it. It is also not redacted or changed or anything. It doesn’t tell you what’s different from the original rules. And so if you are someone who has a lot of time and energy in the next 21 days from, from recording right now, read it and give comment there.

We’re really, really lucky in that there’s some people on our side. And by our, I mean from a county entity. The all stars in this process, because OCM has had challenges, so our best friends have been the Minnesota Association of County Planning and Zoning Administrators. The shortened version of that is MACPZA.

M A C P Z A.

[00:31:57] Sherry Johnson: That is great.

[00:31:58] Stina Neel: They’ve been fantastic. They’ve had webinars, they’ve published these handy guides, they’ve given us draft ordinances. Uh, another one that has been so amazing is, um, we had a cannabis and real estate presentation that was given to us. They’ve been some, some really, really good friends.

Yeah. Uh, the League of Minnesota Cities. They’re phenomenal. There’s a policy analyst at MACPZA, um, Brian Martinson, and he’s phenomenal. He’s been so good about getting legislative briefs. He gives us the direct link. But then also gives us like a two sentence summary. And because he knows that we are so busy as government officials.

[00:32:43] Sherry Johnson: That’s, I mean, that’s what I was going to say. What’s the hardest part of your job with all this right now? You, you probably, if you’re like any local government official, you’re probably already doing two or three jobs. Um, so yeah, what’s been the extra layer of difficulty?

[00:32:59] Stina Neel: I think the hardest part is getting questions from members of the public and electeds that we are getting new information in real time constantly.

And so getting those questions and being able to say, let me research and get back to you. That’s my go to. Um, but it’s hard because the laws are changing, adapting. We think there’s going to be this lottery system and then suddenly we find out that it’s all going to be thrown out. And. It’s frustrating because I never want to look like a fool in front of constituents.

And sometimes I am forced to look like a fool from things outside of my control. The nice thing is, the more folks learn, especially folks in our community, um, our farmers, our city officials, our elected at the county level, those are your Board of Commissioners, your Planning Commission members, the more they learn, the more positive about it they are.

So when we get into details about our ordinance. When we were talking about security, you have to have fences that are a minimum of Six foot seven foot tall

[00:34:04] Sherry Johnson: if you’re a retail location or if you’re any even if you’re growing business

really, okay

[00:34:09] Stina Neel: So yes, it’s not just weed grown in a field It’s gonna be grow houses that have 24 hour security and cameras and electronic locks and all of these really specific Things and so the more that people learn about it the more they feel comfortable.

Because when you just say, we’re legalizing weed, there’s a lot of panic. Um, and in many of the rural areas where people are like, I don’t, I mean, that’s drugs. That’s, I don’t want drugs in my town. And now it’s like, well, I want dispensaries because it’s locally grown, and then it’s locally produced, locally sold, and because we live in a capitalist society, we’re keeping money in my town, and that’s a good thing for me.

And we’re keeping our kids and family members and whoever safe, right? The thing that we learned in Colorado, at least from my perspective, is the people who wanted to try cannabis did, and the folks who never wanted to try it never wanted to be around it. They didn’t. It was so easy to keep separated and they were there was like there was a study that came out just I want to say early last year from Colorado where they were polling teenagers, uh, in high schools of like, they’ve seen that teen marijuana use has gone down since legalization because it’s not taboo and it’s not just like this thing that you have around.

[00:35:39] Sherry Johnson: It’s the stuff your parents do now.

[00:35:42] Stina Neel: Right? It’s no longer cool because like your mom’s popping a gummy.

[00:35:45] Sherry Johnson: All right. So getting back to the public, you’ve said that the, generally, the attitude of the public that you’re noticing is that it’s improving. How has public comment and engagement as a process been happening through all of this? What’s your take on that so far?

[00:36:03] Stina Neel: Yeah, from our perspective, uh, we were trying to meet people where they are. So giving them opportunity to. Read the ordinance making sure that it’s accessible in terms of like digestible content.

[00:36:18] Sherry Johnson: Mm hmm

[00:36:18] Stina Neel: So yes, the ordinance language is not fun to read right? I read it every day.

It’s it’s not thrilling

[00:36:24] Sherry Johnson: Do you have to break down the state stuff as well the state law and the local ordinance for folks? Yeah. Okay.

[00:36:30] Stina Neel: Yes So for example, like the state law said that you can you can say it has to be 500 feet from a school and In, in my community, we decided to expand that to parks, churches, other places where, where families gather because that’s what the, that’s what the constituents wanted.

And being able to explain that, like, well, we are actually a little bit more strict than the state. They’re like, Oh, our county folks are looking out for us.

[00:37:00] Sherry Johnson: Ah, a little bit of politics here. Yes.

[00:37:03] Stina Neel: And then. Working with having that be available to the public in terms of a lot of folks want to talk face to face so having like town hall type meetings versus other folks are like I want to read it and digest it at home and then submit my comments via email or I want to A lot of people do not want to attend a public meeting and stand in front of the mic Mm

hmm,

and I’m the person at the meeting and even I don’t always want to do that.

It’s so scary so providing public comment opportunities You can write in, you can call me, you can email me, and we will make sure that your comments get forwarded to the people who are voting on the decision. Because ultimately, yes, I’m the lady who writes the words in the ordinance, but I’m not the person who votes on it.

[00:37:47] Sherry Johnson: But even all that engagement, I mean, engagement can be really expensive. Have you found that at the local level you’ve had enough resources? Staffing to do the kinds of engagement that you want to do. Have you had to hire, have you and folks like you had to hire contractors? Are you really relying on these associations of planners and things like that to just give you information and resources?

[00:38:09] Stina Neel: We chose to DIY it. Yeah. Um, and. Somehow, we were one of the first adopters in our, in our region and kind of like communities like us. And so other counties were calling us, they’re like, Hey, remember we had that, that phone call in July where we were like, well, what do we do? And then they’re like, you could, you all just adopted your ordinance, right?

And we said, yeah. And they’re like, can you give us some tips? We’re kind of getting down to the wire.

That’s the thing about counties that I see more than cities is there’s no competition, right? Like we’re all just counties trying to do our own thing. So sharing information This is like probably one of the first times that we saw county to county information sharing on a huge scale across the state of this is what works and this is what doesn’t.

[00:38:58] Sherry Johnson: Hmm. That’s really rare. I feel like.

[00:39:01] Stina Neel: But it was magical. Um, other communities are choosing, uh, they don’t have the staff time.

[00:39:07] Sherry Johnson: Yeah.

[00:39:07] Stina Neel: Um, some rural counties, they have one county. Administrator, they don’t have a specific planning and zoning department. There’s like a handful of people that do all the things We have cities that have just a few thousand people.

So their planning department is one human And they’ve chosen to go the route of hiring a consultant, which is yes more expensive But it’s taking all of that work off your plate.

[00:39:31] Sherry Johnson: Yeah,

[00:39:31] Stina Neel: I’ve never worked at a consulting firm I would I would be fascinated to how can we talk to some I mean, can we talk to a consulting firm that did?

A weed ordinance.

[00:39:41] Sherry Johnson: I definitely would speak that language, either the weed ordinance or the, uh, community engagement. That’s interesting.

[00:39:49] Stina Neel: Cause yeah, being able to do community engagement in the community that you work or live in is it’s very satisfying. Um, I’ve talked to people who work in the consulting world and they said that like going into a community that you are a stranger. And presenting information and trying to get people to believe you and trust you is, it’s tricky.

[00:40:09] Sherry Johnson: Can confirm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[00:40:11] Stina Neel: Mm hmm. It’s super easy when I’m in the face, they already know.

[00:40:13] Sherry Johnson: Even in Minneapolis, I’m from St. Paul, and when I try to do community engagement in Minneapolis, I am an outsider. Um, okay.

Where is all this going Stina? What the heck is this? Okay, I’ll just say like right now We’ve got this rulemaking business happening at the state level Local entities sound like they’re getting ahead with all these associations and cooperation There’s this comment period that ends for the rulemaking on February 12th.

That’s supposedly going to put everybody through. Finish the lottery, start the certification process for retail. I keep hearing that it’s supposed to roll out by June or July or summer or, what, it, but it’s been a moving target. What, you got your finger on the pulse at least at the local level. What are you telling people?

[00:41:00] Stina Neel: We’re saying that we’re not going to see any licensing until at least May of 2025.

[00:41:07] Sherry Johnson: Wow.

[00:41:08] Stina Neel: Um, and that’s licensing. That’s not, doors are opening for a business. There, I mean, there’s existing businesses that might get their license and then they’ll just, it’s just a new, like, piece of paper on the wall.

[00:41:20] Sherry Johnson: Mm hmm.

So you’ve got a, probably a bunch of people that are applying for these things that haven’t invested money. Uh, to rent a space or get a space even. So they’re, they’re still waiting even to start that process. So this is going to be a long haul.

[00:41:35] Stina Neel: So the license application window for general applicants, right?

Because they have the social equity applicants, uh, that’s January of this year. Then February 18th through March 14th is general applicants and then it closes March 14th. So then they’re saying that tentatively. The licenses will be issued May or June

[00:41:56] Sherry Johnson: of this year. Mm hmm.

And then you think about business startups, you know, six months to a year.

And then, um, has there been any kind of movement to assist small businesses and social equity applicants with financing for some of what it takes to do business, especially given federal rules around marijuana?

[00:42:16] Stina Neel: That I don’t know, but I do know that it is huge capital to, to start a business. My coworkers got to, got to visit the hemp facility in, in Waconia and they were like just the sheer cost of.

Um, opening a grow facility is so much and that’s startup that you have to have from day one. And I don’t know, I don’t know where that’s going to come from.

[00:42:42] Sherry Johnson: Yeah, because it’s largely still a cash industry. And even with the social equity applicants, it seems to me that there’s going to be some inequity in the system.

Wow. Stina, anything else you want to say about all of this?

[00:42:58] Stina Neel: Hmm.

[00:42:59] Sherry Johnson: Encouragement for our listeners, maybe?

[00:43:02] Stina Neel: I think Keeping up to date is, it is a challenge and it does feel like you’re constantly refreshing the page on, I’m refreshing the page on OCM, like probably once a week, if not more. And knowing that it is going to be complicated and it’s still going to be weird even when the businesses start up, you know.

We had a little bit of a situation here in Minneapolis with a, with a restaurant. Oh. That they were not following, uh, they were not following state regulations about what they could and could not sell in terms of potency and smokable versus, um, versus edibles. Mm hmm.

[00:43:46] Sherry Johnson: And. Is this is the sort of do it before you ask thing? Like.

[00:43:51] Stina Neel: Yeah. And they received fines.

[00:43:53] Sherry Johnson: Oh, man.

[00:43:54] Stina Neel: And then they eventually, they chose to shut down. So the government did not shut them down. They chose to shut down because they felt as though the rules that were explained to them multiple times were unfair and So there it’s it’s a tricky road. And I think my advice is learning the rules, Asking questions.

It’s better to ask questions ahead of time and to call folks and say is this thing allowed is this not allowed? And then being patient.

[00:44:23] Sherry Johnson: Mm hmm.

[00:44:24] Stina Neel: So

[00:44:26] Sherry Johnson: So, bike delivery. You’re out there. I know you’re out there. If you’re anywhere, you’re listening to this podcast. Yeah. Now you know you need to get on the board here.

Cool. Stina. Yes. You’re incredible. Thank you so much for talking about the ins and outs of legal weed.

[00:44:43] Stina Neel: Yeah. And who knows, this is probably Not going to be our only part of the story. This will probably be a multi parter.

[00:44:50] Sherry Johnson: Ooh.

[00:44:51] Stina Neel: Um, as time goes on in legislation and who knows, maybe we’ll take the field mics out to a, to an establishment.

[00:44:58] Sherry Johnson: Okay. That sounds like fun. In the summer. I’m in. Let’s go.

[00:45:01] Stina Neel: Mm hmm.

[00:45:02] Ian R. Buck: And thank you for joining us for this episode of the Streets.mn Podcast. The show is released under a Creative Commons attribution, non commercial, non derivative license, so feel free to republish the episode as long as you are not altering it and you are not profiting from it.

The music in this episode is by Eric Brandt and the Urban Hillbilly Quartet. This episode was co produced by Stina Neel and Sherry Johnson, transcribed by Stina Neel, and was edited and hosted by me, Ian R. Buck. We’re always looking to feature new voices on the Streets.mn Podcast, so if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [[email protected]]. Streets.mn is a community blog and podcast and relies on contributions from audience members like you. If you can make a one time or recurring donation, you can find more information about doing so at [https://streets.mn/donate].

Find other listeners and discuss this episode on your favorite social media platform using the hashtag #StreetsMNPodcast. Until next time, take care.

Weed: From Law to Implementation

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