The Twin Cities is improving our transit access to ski hills! Let’s compare it to another metro area with nearby ski opportunities: Denver!
Links
Pictures
Attributions
Our theme song is Tanz den Dobberstein, and our interstitial song is Puck’s Blues. Both tracks used by permission of their creator, Erik Brandt. Find out more about his band, The Urban Hillbilly Quartet, on their website.
This episode was hosted, edited, and transcribed by Ian R Buck. Many thanks to Ian Gaida for coming on the show. We’re always looking to feature new voices on the show, so if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [email protected].
Transcript
[00:00:00] Ian B: Welcome to the Streets.mn Podcast, the show where we highlight how transportation and land use can make our communities better places. Coming to you from beautiful Seward, Minneapolis, Minnesota. I am your host Ian R Buck. It’s ski season around here, and I am thrilled that Ian Gaida took me on a couple of transit to ski adventures this year.
So let’s sit down with him and chat about what we learned on those trips. So Ian Gaida? Yes. What is the wildest adventure that you went on on a train last year?
[00:00:38] Ian G: Uh, probably going to Wolf Point, Montana for like three hours and then coming back. But Okay.
[00:00:46] Ian B: Okay. I should have… I was fishing for a particular, uh, thing that we did together, and I should have known that you had some a, a better answer.
Yeah. So my wildest thing was a trip that I went on with you. Yes. Uh, and that was heading to Colorado to go skiing at Winter Park Resort. Via train. And this was a like, totally off the cuff. You just like posted in a group chat, "Hey, look at this train that goes straight up the mountain from Denver to Winter Park. Who wants to go and ride that with me? Who wants to go skiing?" And I was like, I don’t know. I’ve got two weeks of, you know, winter vacation. Like, why not? Mm-hmm . , . And so we went and did it. Yeah. Um, and we are here to, to come back and report about . What it looks like to have a great transit option for getting to a ski area and how we can replicate that here in the Twin Cities.
Yeah. So, yeah. Um, ironically when we were there, we figured out that both of us kind of wanted to back out on the trip , but neither of us wanted to disappoint the other .
[00:02:00] Ian G: Neither of us were like a hundred percent sold on it, I think because yeah, it was just kind of, uh, an off the cuff thing. Like I, I kind of didn’t expect this to actually happen. I just threw that out there and you’re like, yeah, all right. It was like, okay, I guess this is actually happening now.
[00:02:16] Ian B: Right, right. It’s dangerous. It’s dangerous. Playing the "Yes and game" with like real world vacations that are gonna cost like many hundreds of dollars to get there.
[00:02:25] Ian G: Like 1500 for me. Yeah.
[00:02:26] Ian B: Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so, I mean, let’s start there. Right. Um, so the Winter Park Express train. Mm-hmm . It goes from Denver. It’s, it’s once a day. It goes from Denver in the morning. What was our departure time? 7:00 AM 7:00 AM Yeah. Yeah. Um, arrives at Winter Park. Was it an hour and a half or two hours later?
[00:02:47] Ian G: Uh, I think it was two hours. Yeah, I think it was right around 9:00 AM or just before.
[00:02:52] Ian B: So it drops you off, like right next to one of the chalets. Mm-hmm . You know, you’re right there at the base of, uh, the, the ski slopes and, you know, you can get going immediately. Mm-hmm . Uh, and then it leaves . Uh, at 4:00 PM and comes back down to Denver in time for dinner time.
Um, now this service is clearly not designed for anybody who’s from out of town to use it , right? Like, like we were going to be coming from, you were coming from the Twin Cities. Yep. I was in, in the Quad Cities, Iowa, um, visiting family. And, uh, you know, it would’ve been I, I was . Really, really hoping to be able to ride the California Zephyr and go from, from Iowa straight to Colorado, get on the Winter Park Express, and go up the mountain.
Um, turns out the California Zephyr westbound passes through Denver like a half an hour before the Winter Park Express is scheduled to go up the mountain. Mm-hmm . And then in the opposite direction. It’s the reverse. Right? The Winter Park Express. Uh, gets you into Denver just after the California’s effort goes through.
So like, it was not a, it was, it was exactly the opposite of a convenient connection. , it was an explicitly disallowed connection in both directions. Um, but, uh, I mean it notably they both take the same route. Yes. Right. Uh, and the, the California Zephyr just doesn’t stop at the Winter Park Station.
Mm-hmm . It stops in the next town over in Fraser, which I did take advantage of that ’cause we, we, we skied for two days. Yep. And so we took the, the train up and down the first day and then we took the train up on the second day and then I took a city bus over to Fraser to catch the California Zephyr and just go straight home, uh, instead of taking the Winter Park Express back down with you.
Yeah. Uh. Which was neat because now I’ve been to a, an Amtrak station that you’ve never been to , which is unusual.
[00:05:03] Ian G: I mean, I’ve only been to like, maybe 20 of ’em, so that’s not that unusual .
[00:05:07] Ian B: But, but you are explicitly on a mission to visit every single Amtrak station.
[00:05:11] Ian G: Yeah, I know.
[00:05:11] Ian B: Which is fun. . Um, so yeah, so, so what are our thoughts on this, on this service?
Um, you know, as it relates to people who are living in Denver and getting people in Denver up to . Uh, is, is Winter Park, the nearest ski resort to Denver?
[00:05:29] Ian G: Uh, it’s got to be one of ’em. I don’t actually know the answer to that.
[00:05:35] Ian B: I don’t know. It’s, they’re up in the mountains, so I imagine there’s probably a lot of different options.
Yes. But yeah. Um, it was definitely a very popular ski resort and a very popular train. Mm-hmm . Right? Like . We on the second day, we weren’t able to find any seats in the ordinary, you know, coach train cars. Yeah. We had to hang out in the, uh, in the observation car the whole time, which was fine because it’s a beautiful ride.
Oh yeah. Oh my God.
[00:06:03] Ian G: And with the wraparound windows and everything, it’s.
Yeah, it’s amazing.
[00:06:07] Ian B: Yeah. They know that it’s a beautiful ride and that is part of the feature, right? Mm-hmm. That they are like leaning into, they have little pamphlets. We brought home one of them, I’ll probably include pictures of it in the, uh, show notes.
Um, but like the conductor comes on the intercom, uh, several times throughout the ride to talk about like, oh, "and now we’re gonna be passing by. The Big 10 loop. Yeah. And like, what does that mean? What you know, uh, here’s this big dam and you know, we’re going through the tunnel district," you know, like giving a lot of the history of, of this particular length of, of railroad.
So like, it, it, it’s a, it’s a tourist oriented surface and. The ride itself is part of the experience, right? Mm-hmm . Um, which is pretty neat. Uh, I, I rode that same section of track on the California Zephyr. They don’t say anything. . They don’t care. We’re, they’re just getting you from point A to point B.
[00:07:02] Ian G: Okay.
[00:07:05] Ian B: Which is pretty, um, I mean, for me that’s what I needed because like I got on the train after two days of skiing and I was like, I need a shower. And I just like, need to take a nap. . Yeah. How do you feel about the fact that it’s like, it, it is a, it is a once a day, you know, you go up in the morning, you come down in the evening.
Mm-hmm . You don’t have any like, flexibility built into the, the whole thing?
[00:07:31] Ian G: I mean, in the way, I’m kind of fine with that because, you know, the, the lift tickets are like 225 bucks a day. If you’re going up there, you want to be up there right. The whole day, in my opinion. And, and join the,
[00:07:44] Ian B: yeah. Well, but, but also that, I mean,
My, one of the things that I was nervous about before we went mm-hmm . Was when I saw that we were going to be leaving at 4:00 PM I was like, but what if I wanna be skiing longer? Mm-hmm . You know, and, and, um. Turns out 4:00 PM is about when the lifts start shut shutting down. Yeah. Uh, because like they, they, it’s getting dark.
[00:08:06] Ian G: It’s getting dark. They don’t have lights. They don’t do night skiing like we do out here. Right,
[00:08:10] Ian B: right, right, right. Uh, we are farther north here in the Twin Cities, so like, if you’re not night skiing, you know you’re not gonna have much time at all. . So. Yeah. And you know,
[00:08:18] Ian G: the sun, sun comes up earlier and sets later when you’re on the top of a mountain.
[00:08:22] Ian B: Indeed, indeed. Yeah. And yeah, so I, I think I. I think it works fine. I think that especially since this is an Amtrak service and you have to book your tickets ahead of time mm-hmm . You know, it’s like, even if they had multiple trains per day, it’s not like you would have the flexibility to just be like, well, I feel like leaving now.
Yeah. So I’m gonna go now. Right. Uh, the way that you do with, you know, an ordinary local, uh, public transit service. Mm-hmm . Yeah. . So, um, so yeah, I think, I think it’s . It’s a, it’s a well-designed high capacity, right? Mm-hmm . Because it’s a train you can carry a lot of people. Yep. Um, and they could carry more people by just adding more train cars to the darn thing.
[00:09:05] Ian G: Mm-hmm . And they do, they do later in the season, okay.
[00:09:07] Ian B: Mm-hmm . And I mean, it, it is a very important service to be offering because the connection between, like the car connection between Denver and Winter Park is a single interstate highway. Mm-hmm . That. Yeah. When you’ve got thousands of people trying to get up the hill.
[00:09:27] Ian G: Yeah. It, it’s infamous for just getting backed up and taking like three hours. Right. Right. To go anywhere. Yeah.
[00:09:33] Ian B: Or you could relax on a train. Mm-hmm . Yeah.
[00:09:37] Ian G: Ano. Another thing is like, you know, since you’re staying in Denver, you’re not paying, uh, resort prices.
[00:09:43] Ian B: Oh, yes. Mm-hmm .
[00:09:44] Ian G: So we, the two of us stayed, uh, in a hotel right by Union Station.
Like literally across the street?
[00:09:51] Ian B: Literally across the street, yeah.
[00:09:52] Ian G: And I think it was less than a hundred dollars a night, whereas I think most of the resorts were in like the 200 to 300 range.
[00:09:59] Ian B: Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, this is a thing that would make a big difference for somebody who. Lives in the Denver area, right?
Mm-hmm . And so like, they’re not paying anything extra to, to stay anywhere because they already live there, but like even for us . .. Now the, the flip side is we forgot to take into account that when you’re up on a mountain, you’re gonna feel different Yes. Than when you are down, you know, uh, the parts in the Midwest that we’re from, were at like, what? 800 feet above sea level or something like that. Yeah.
[00:10:29] Ian G: 800 to a thousand depending on where.
[00:10:31] Ian B: Yeah. And, um, Winter Park Ski Resort’s at the base of the, the ski hills. You’re, you’re at what, 8,000 feet above sea level? Something like that? Eight or 9,000. And, and the ski lifts go all the way up to like 12,000 I think.
Yep. Is the highest. So, um, we were skiing on that first day and we get to like lunchtime and we’re looking at each other going. Why am I so tired?
[00:10:56] Ian G: e even before that, like, you know, I flew with my gear out there, uh, and just like, you know, they let you put your gear on, on the train and you can store any bags and such on the train.
Mm-hmm . So I was putting my gear on beforehand and like, just by the end of putting my boots on, I was like, winded .
[00:11:14] Ian B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, and, and I was . I was so psyched out by that. ’cause I was like, it’s, I was like, I’m not going super hard. Mm-hmm . On the skiing here, it doesn’t, you know, it wasn’t like really wet, heavy snow.
No. You know, I was like, this, this shouldn’t be difficult. And so we, we, we get to the end of the day and I’m like, I’m texting home and my mom, who’s a registered nurse was like, . "Ian, you’re, you’re many thousands of feet above where you usually are. Uh, you’re probably just feeling the altitude difference."
And I was like, oh, yeah. Mm-hmm . And then on the second day we met a guy who . Was talking about like, "oh yeah. Yesterday, uh, I kind of passed out and they had to send me to the hospital and they put me on oxygen." Yep. And . And, and we were like, oh, okay. Okay. Um, I guess we’re gonna feel better about like, the fact that we just felt tired.
[00:12:08] Ian G: Yeah. So someone had a, uh. Pulse oximeter on them and the guy put it on and there was a nurse in there as well and he was still like borderline at the point where they would put him on oxygen.
[00:12:21] Ian B: I think he said yeah, he was at like 87%. Yeah. Blood oxygen level. Yeah. . So, so learn from our mistakes, right?
Mm-hmm . If you’re going to go up into some legit mountains and go skiing mm-hmm . Uh, give yourself a little extra time like. Like my trip there was literally just hopping on an overnight bus that got to Denver at like 6:30 in the morning. Mm-hmm . And then I had half an hour to eat some breakfast and hop on the train.
Uh, . Yep. Um, I mean, even, even if you live in Denver though, like you are going up significantly higher than you know where you live. Mm-hmm . So I don’t know how much of a difference. It would make for, for folks in that area. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but for, for, uh, visitors like us, yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:10] Ian G: Give, give yourself a day maybe to acclimate a little bit.
I, I feel like with like a rest, by the end of the second day, I felt like with rest day mm-hmm . And like one more day of skiing, I would’ve been pretty good.
[00:13:23] Ian B: Right, right. Um, but we were constrained by the fact that the train only was running on Friday, Saturdays and Sundays. Yeah. At the time. Yeah. So it is like early in the season they only do weekends.
Mm-hmm . And then as the season progresses, they uh, start offering it more days of the week. Mm-hmm . Um,
[00:13:43] Ian G: and that’s new this year actually. Okay. That’s kind of why I first, uh, brought this up right. Was ’cause they. They’re offering it longer throughout the season. They’re offering it more days. It’s like Thursday through Monday now.
Mm-hmm . Uh, you can go up to Fraser and just like bum around town up there if skiing isn’t your thing.
[00:14:00] Ian B: Right. I thought it was very funny that . Like all of the flyers that we saw, everybody who is like announcing stuff about like, oh yeah, you know, welcome to Winter Park. And you know, like of course skiing is the main attraction, but every single flyer made sure that it mentioned.
"And if you don’t like skiing, there’s a little something here for everybody." Mm-hmm . And none of them ever said what any of the other stuff was that’s there for everybody. .
[00:14:24] Ian G: I, I looked at downtown Fraser and it’s like a brewery, a winery, and a distillery. Right. Like by the Amtrak station. That’s pretty much it.
[00:14:32] Ian B: Like a bunch of cute shops that are like right there by the ski resort. Mm-hmm . But I was like, I don’t know, did I come up this mountain to like go shopping? Not really, no. I can go shopping anywhere. Yeah. Like , gimme something unique. . Hmm. Um, actually, so, okay. Speaking of shopping and like pedestrian experiences, right?
Mm-hmm . Oh my god. Union Station in Denver.
[00:14:54] Ian G: Oh, yeah.
[00:14:55] Ian B: Gorgeous. Yeah. Uh, like gorgeous Station. Mm-hmm . Has a lot going on inside it. Like there’s a, there’s a bookstore, there’s of course several restaurants. Um, there’s a hotel like embedded right there in that building. Yep. That had a live harpist. Playing music Yep.
In their lobby. I was, I was like, my mind was blown. Mm-hmm . Um, but then also like Union Station is just integrated into the rest, like it’s this entire pedestrian mall. Yeah. That’s like. Some of the, some of the streets, like cars are allowed. They feel more like alleys though. So like, you know, it’s mm-hmm
Like walking around is, is the norm. And it’s not just like one, like linear street. That’s that case, you know? It’s like Yeah.
[00:15:38] Ian G: It’s like a superblock almost.
[00:15:39] Ian B: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, and so, so yeah, we got to walk around that area and, uh, experience a little bit of that mm-hmm . On the, in the, the evening after our first day of skiing, so.
I’m a fan. Yeah. Uh, of, of that whole… Lowertown wishes, , that it were, that mm-hmm . Right. . What do we need to do to get Lowertown St. Paul to feel like that? I don’t know. I know, I mean, of course…
[00:16:07] Ian G: there’s, there’s been a lot of new shops opened up in Union Depot recently, which is good. Okay. Good. Good. You know, there’s been Choo Choo Bob’s, there’s been that bookstore that I can’t think of the name of now.
Uh, they had the . They had an ice bar out there. I don’t know if you
[00:16:19] Ian B: Oh yeah, I saw pictures.
[00:16:21] Ian G: Yeah. I, I went there on a recent trip after a recent trip to the Dells. I had like just enough time to stop there and chug a hot toddie before a light rail train. That was kind of fun. . Um,
[00:16:32] Ian B: I mean, but yeah, it’s at so many other things with the Twin Cities.
It’s like, I think one of our main problems is that we have diluted our population center between two core cities. Mm-hmm . Right. You know, and we’ve got the train station in. The smaller, less densely populated one. Yeah. Right. . So, um, yeah, there’s kind of, I mean, we’re, we’re, we’re living in the, in that, in that environment that we’ve inherited, so Yep.
What can we do about it? Mm-hmm . So do we wanna bring this over to the Twin Cities? Yes. Think about local, local ski opportunities.
[00:17:07] Ian G: Um, great transition.
[00:17:09] Ian B: Yes. Thank you. Ian, you also were responsible for bringing . Awareness of the existence of MVTA’s new Buck Hill, uh, bus route. Yes. To our group chat. So yeah, tell us a little bit about that service.
[00:17:24] Ian G: Yeah. So, uh, well it started a couple years ago, actually. May maybe you remember, uh, the MVTA had a service, the Link bus. Mm-hmm . I think they still have it. Yes. It was specifically the Orange Link and it was like a half hourly bus that ran down to like Burnsville Center and some apartment complexes. Mm-hmm
Which got you within about a quarter mile of Buck Hill. Yeah.
[00:17:46] Ian B: Yeah. Uh, so like, and we did that two years ago.
[00:17:48] Ian G: We did that two years ago. Yeah. Uh, and there, there’s a big old hill you gotta walk up at the end of the day.
[00:17:53] Ian B: It’s a very slippery hill,
[00:17:54] Ian G: which is very slippery. Mm-hmm . But other than that, it was all right.
Yeah. But then they moved the Link bus, uh, which made me rather upset. Right. And I wrote about it in an article once .
[00:18:04] Ian B: At the same time though, they brought MVTA Connect online, you know, their micro transit service. And last year I noticed that the, the service area had expanded enough that MVTA Connect could bring you to that same spot at the top of that hill.
Okay? Um. Of course you’re still walking up and down the hill, which was mm-hmm . The main problem. The other problem, the reason that I didn’t take that option last year was that there was just no snow last year. that too. Yeah. Right. But this year,
[00:18:33] Ian G: this year, I think it started January 13th, uh, the MVTA launched new boss, the 412, the Buck Hill, uh, Ski Link service.
[00:18:43] Ian B: Yeah.
[00:18:44] Ian G: So it just once an hour from like 10:00 AM to 7:00 PM. It’ll pick you up at the Orange Line stop, drop you off at Buck Hill with some other stops in between. Yep. And then when you’re done skiing, same thing on pretty much at the top of the hour, you go back out by the road bus picks you up, takes you back to the Orange Line, stop.
Mm-hmm .
[00:19:05] Ian B: And it’s, it is kind of funny that you mentioned the Orange Link, right? Mm-hmm . Which now runs only on weekdays. It’s hourly and it’s route. Goes from the Orange Line Station at Burnsville Heart of the city. Mm-hmm . You know, goes down to the, is that the Burnsville Center, uh, mall? Yeah, I think so. And then it turns like straight East and goes, you know…
[00:19:29] Ian G: to the Red Line.
[00:19:30] Ian B: Yes. Yes. And the Buck Hill, the 412, right? Mm-hmm . Picks up at Burnsville Heart of the city follows almost the exact same route as the Orange Link until it gets to. Burnsville Center Mall, and then it goes down to Buck Hill itself instead. Mm-hmm . Instead of all the way over to the Red Line. And it is also hourly.
Mm-hmm . And it also has the exact same departure times as the Orange Link. Yeah. So it’s, it’s basically just like the same, the same route. Just with a, a tweaked ending. Mm-hmm . But because of the way that, I guess Yeah. The scheduling system works and everything, it has its own distinct number. Yeah. And, um, and I, I believe that it has the distinction of being the only route in the entire metro system.
That only runs on weekends. I can’t, last time I did my research, I could not find any routes that were only weekends.
[00:20:23] Ian G: Um, , was it, does the Ren Faire service run weekdays too? Uh, that was the, that’d be the only one I could think of.
[00:20:30] Ian B: So I don’t know if I would count the Renaissance Festival shuttles as like Okay.
An official route, you know? Okay. Because it doesn’t have like a route number the way that all the others do. Sure. Yeah. Um, and you can’t use your go-to card to pay for it.
[00:20:43] Ian G: Really.
[00:20:44] Ian B: Yeah. No, it, it’s, it’s $5 fare, you know, like, okay.
[00:20:47] Ian G: Yeah. It’s a special. Got it.
[00:20:49] Ian B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The other, the closest thing that I’ve found is MVTA’s, uh, 4Fun bus during the summers.
Okay. Yeah. Uh, which runs like Thursday through Sunday. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, but anyway, so, so going down to Buck Hill way easier now than it was before. Mm-hmm . Don’t have to deal with that hill. Love it. Um, I was kind of. I was nervous about the fact that this, this bus that according to like the name and the press release and everything, like the whole point of it is to get you from the Orange Line to Buck Hill, right?
Mm-hmm . And yet it’s following the same local bus route with all of the same stops and everything. Mm-hmm . And so I was worried that it was gonna be like super, super slow . Right. You know, it’s like, oh, if you want, if you want to get me to Buck Hill quickly, why don’t we just hop back onto 35W Yeah. And then take the exit next to Buck Hill.
It wasn’t actually that long of a trip.
[00:21:44] Ian G: No, it’s like 20 minutes.
[00:21:46] Ian B: Yeah. Yeah. And when you’re sitting on the bus with a few friends like chitchatting Yeah. That time flows, flies by real fast. Mm-hmm . Uh, so I’m not, I’m not really very upset about that. Um, that said. There is an express bus that goes from like, you know, downtown Minneapolis.
It stops at the Lake Street station and then it goes all the way down to Lakeville. Yeah. And when you look at the, the time it takes, like you could hop on that bus and have a really long walk at the end to Buck Hill , and it takes about the same time, end to end as, uh, as taking the Orange Line and then the um,
the Buck Hill, the 412 mm-hmm . Now if you’ve got your own ski gear, right? You’re not, probably not gonna wanna do that big, long walk.
[00:22:33] Ian G: Maybe not.
[00:22:33] Ian B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I just think it’s ironic that like, oh yeah, we’re, we’re, we’re setting up these services specifically to get you to this one popular destination.
And, uh, and we can’t do it faster than a bus. That’s not meant for this . So being on a . Local transit route, of course, uh, you get some entertaining stuff that happens sometimes. Mm-hmm . . So like, we were very surprised by some of the, uh, advertisements on the MVTA route.
[00:23:08] Ian G: Yes. Uh, one of ’em was just, uh, an ad for the anime club at the Burnsville High School.
[00:23:15] Ian B: Yeah. I, I mean, I’m, I’m delighted and shocked that the kids at this suburban high school. Thought to themselves, Hey, we want to get more, more of our classmates in our club. Where are we gonna advertise? On the bus! .
[00:23:31] Ian G: It, it makes me wonder how much those actually costs and, uh, whether or not Streets has the budget to put one up there.
[00:23:37] Ian B: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I also, I, I loved, yeah, I loved the graphic design on the advertisement. It was, uh. Yeah. Word art, like, uh, yep. Yeah. And then, and then some just like random screenshots clips from, from Dragon Ball Z. Mm-hmm . Uh, even though there were several other anime shows listed on the, on the advertisement, they only had images from Dragon Ball.
[00:24:04] Ian G: Was there a list of shows? I didn’t catch that.
[00:24:07] Ian B: There were, there were, yeah. Um, , I think Naruto was definitely on there. Okay. Um, they had Dragon Ball Z um. Sword Art Online. Okay. And what does that say? Jeremiah Prok?
[00:24:21] Ian G: That must be the guy who made the ad. Okay.
[00:24:27] Ian B: Well, oh, and then, okay. And then the logo of Cornerstone Copy Center, which I, I assume is like
[00:24:33] Ian G: where they got it printed.
[00:24:35] Ian B: Yeah. . Oh, it’s, ah, it’s adorable. Mm-hmm . Um, yeah. The other, the other hilarious thing that I saw was on the way down. Um, at the Burnsville Heart of the City station, there was a bike wheel with a saddle and a seatpost just kind of like sitting there next to the bus shelter.
And I thought to myself, Hmm, that’s 80% of a unicycle right there,
So, yeah. You, uh, you see some entertaining stuff. Uhhuh, . Um, actually, how was your, since you had to wait for nearly an hour. At Burnsville Heart of the City. Like how, how is the experience around there? Um, because, because they always talk about, Heart of the City is supposed to be like, oh yeah, this is like a tran or a, a pedestrian oriented, you know, walkable area.
Lots of apartments and also supposedly shopping, uh, destinations. But I’ve never, like, every time I’m there, the only thing that I can see. That I want to interface with is I need to go to the bathroom. There’s a convenience store right there.
[00:25:42] Ian G: Yeah. And when we were there, they actually closed the restroom in that convenience store now.
Yeah. So I had to walk across, uh, the other side of Highway 13 to get to the, uh, Holiday, uh, to use the bathroom there.
[00:25:53] Ian B: Incredible. Incredible. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I think, I think that leaves something to be desired for sure. Yeah. Yeah. . Yep. Yeah. Um. Burnsville, you talked a big game about, about this area, , and, um, I’m, I’m, I have not seen the, the results of this.
[00:26:14] Ian G: No. .
[00:26:17] Ian B: Oh, well
I don’t own ski gear, you know? Mm-hmm . All of these trips that we’ve been talking about, I have been just renting when we get there. So for me, like . Easy peasy trip. Haven’t had to deal with any equipment or anything. Yeah. Um, you’ve been bringing, you know, your, your boots and your helmet and your big, big ski bag.
Yep. How, like, what kind of infrastructure do you find helps for, for that scenario?
[00:26:42] Ian G: Anything where I don’t have to walk as far mm-hmm . Is probably the most useful thing. Just, you know, having to carry those two bags for long distances is kind of a pain. ’cause you know, I have . Uh, 176 centimeter skis. So that’s, yeah.
What a different number in imperial units. . Uh, so yeah, those things can like, are hard to like swing around just ’cause they’re really long and have a lot of inertia and, you know, you twist a handle on the bag. And then it starts to move . So that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now sometimes I sling it over my shoulder, but it doesn’t sit straight up and down, and then that causes problems.
’cause you’re banging into stuff. Mm-hmm . So yeah, just like wide, wide areas to move and places to the ability to just set stuff down somewhere. ? Yeah. Or like the big, the big hurdles.
[00:27:30] Ian B: Yeah. The, um, the Winter Park Express. Mm-hmm . Has all of the usual, like the, the, the cargo car. Uh, on the train and they have a bunch of like ski racks.
Yep. Just like, you know, in set up in the middle of that. Yeah. Mm-hmm . And you, you just like walk up on the platform and you hand it to the, to a person. Yep. You know, an Amtrak employee who’s up there in the car and they put it away for you, right? Mm-hmm . Yeah. We also spotted on the train platform, some ski racks.
Mm-hmm . Just sitting there. So I guess you could like leave your skis there and then they would come and pick ’em up. And put ’em into the cargo.
[00:28:06] Ian G: Uh, you could, uh, you know, when they first get there, they’re, they just start unloading like mad, so, oh, they, they don’t,
[00:28:13] Ian B: oh, that’s probably what they’re for that end of the Yeah.
[00:28:15] Ian G: Yeah. They don’t hand them directly to people. They just schlep them on the racks unless you, unless you happen to see them grab your stuff and be like, Hey, that’s mine. Then they’ll hand it to you.
[00:28:25] Ian B: Right, right. Yeah. It would take way too long, otherwise, yeah, yeah, for sure. The, the MVTA bus, of course, is just a perfectly ordinary MVTA bus.
Mm-hmm . Uh, which means that it does have much cushier seats. Than most Metro Transit buses. Yep. That was nice. Yep. . Um, but there, you know, no, no special cargo considerations for taking, taking your skis on there. Not really, which was absolutely fine for us because the times that we rode our group was the only people who were on the bus.
Yep. I think there was the, on the way back there was one guy who boarded at the mall. Yeah. And then he got onto the Orange Line with us as well. Mm-hmm . Yeah. So it definitely. In the Twin Cities, the MVTA connection is less well utilized than the Winter Park Express . Yes.
[00:29:15] Ian G: This, this is the first year they’re doing it, I believe.
Yep. Mm-hmm . And it’s not that well advertised, right? Yeah, I, I saw it ’cause, uh, a friend shared a post on LinkedIn about it.
[00:29:27] Ian B: Mm-hmm . Yeah. Wow.
[00:29:29] Ian G: Yeah. [ laughter] .
[00:29:29] Ian B: What a world do we live in. Yes. . I, I guess I need to curate my LinkedIn, uh, feed a little bit better. . Now, I, I did, so when I bought my tickets for Buck Hill, I did see in the email some notes about like the new MVTA route.
Okay. And encouraging people to use that. When we were picking up our lift tickets, uh, I saw up on the wall. Uh, a sign about it and it had all the departure times and everything. Mm-hmm . So like, that was, that was nice. Um, the, the stop right outside of the parking lot where the bus picks up. Mm-hmm . It does not have like an official MVTA
you know, branded, like metal sign attached to a signpost or anything. They have a sandwich board. Mm-hmm . Uh, that just says "MVTA, shuttle buses pick up here." Mm-hmm . Um, but it’s, it’s blue. It’s got like the, the Buck Hill logo on it Yeah. And everything. So that was kind of funny to me. Mm-hmm . Yeah. I, I, I hope.
I hope that with more time and more advertising and, you know, getting the word out there that this can be a more popular option. ’cause I mean, end to end, coming from coming from South Minneapolis, uh, you know, um, Stina’s place is like a 20 minute walk from uh, Orange Line Station. Mm-hmm . And it took just over an hour, end to end, uh, to get there.
You’re in downtown? Yeah. And I think you’re probably closer to the Orange Line. But you’re probably, but but you’re a little bit farther up on the route.
[00:31:04] Ian G: Right. I think it took me about, well, in theory it would take about an hour and a half, hour 45, I think. Mm-hmm . Uh, if you don’t, uh, miss the connection, which, yes, that’s a, happened to me.
[00:31:15] Ian B: That’s a very good point. So on the way down mm-hmm . Where you’re transferring from the Orange Line, which comes every 15 minutes mm-hmm . To the Buck Hill route that comes at once an hour. Yeah. That’s a little nerve wracking. Mm-hmm . and the, I think it’s like a seven minute transfer window. Yep. If everything is exactly on time.
Yep. So I think my advice to people would be, on your way south, probably grab the Orange Line that’s one before the one that you think you need.
[00:31:47] Ian G: Yeah. De depending on the weather. ’cause you know, we did get this, we did this, uh, yesterday. And we got…
[00:31:53] Ian B: what and what day is yesterday? Ian. ,
[00:31:56] Ian G: Saturday the eighth.
And you know, we got like five, six inches of snow. Something like that. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . So that’s probably why the bus was running late. Yeah. And why we missed it. Yeah. And I will say when, when we did finally get our bus and pulled outta the orange line stop, we did so right as another orange line bus was pulling up.
So if there was anyone on that bus, they would’ve also missed it.
[00:32:15] Ian B: Oh, okay. Yeah. on the way back, of course. Mm-hmm . You know, you’re at Buck Hill. The bus comes once an hour, so you just need to make sure that you’re standing there Yeah, when the bus comes. Yeah. And then if you, if, if the bus, if that bus is a little bit later than you expect, like.
Making a connection to the orange line is a huge deal. Deal because like at maximum you’re waiting an extra 15 minutes. Mm-hmm . So, yeah. As I alluded to earlier in the episode, I did appreciate the flexibility of being able to be like, oh, you know, we all arrived here as a group. Um, and well actually, uh, Stina and I came with our friend Ryan and his daughter Forrest, and then, you know, like you came, uh, a few hours later mm-hmm
With, with Dane and, and, um. You know, and we were all like skiing and then, you know, you and I and Stina decided to leave at 6:00 PM instead of, you know, waiting until the last bus and, you know, so like, yeah, we all, you know, Ryan and, and Forrest like . Left like right after lunchtime. So it was, you know, we had a lot of flexibility.
Mm-hmm . For people to come and go whenever they wanted to and not have to plan everything out. Exactly. Which is great when you have a five-year-old Yes. , because you never know what kind of mood she’s gonna be in. Yeah. Um, what kind of energy level she’s gonna have. So. Uh, so yeah, it was great to be able to, to, you know, like that’s quite often when people think of like, oh, do I want to drive or do I want to take transit?
That the flexibility is one of the considerations. It’s like, oh, I want to be able to just like hop in the car and leave whenever, whenever we need to. Mm-hmm . Um, and I would argue that having this big group where instead of all of us coming in one vehicle and all of us having to leave in one vehicle. We had more flexibility in this scenario.
Mm-hmm . Than we otherwise would have. Yeah.
Thinking about the popularity of like the Renaissance Festival shuttles versus the seemingly hardly anybody else using the Buck Hill shuttles so far, I have some thoughts on one of the reasons that that is, and I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that the Renaissance Festival was, whether they made this decision on their own or whether they were pushed into it by Scott County, they did make the decision to start paying, uh, uh, charging money for parking. Mm-hmm . Right. Okay. And I think, and I think that was a big factor in folks like broadly deciding to use the park and ride, uh, locations and taking the shuttles in.
Sure. I, I don’t know whether the folks who run Buck Hill are seeing parking as that big of a problem that they are going to start charging for parking. I definitely know that the traffic issue is not nearly as bad as the Renaissance Festival had been. ,
[00:35:03] Ian G: I, I know my sister joined us and she drove down from St. Paul. Mm-hmm . Uh, and I know she said when she got there, there was no parking at all. Okay. But I think she got there, like right as lessons were getting out. Okay. So there was probably just a temporary crush, but it, but it is definitely an option like the. Uh, shuttle bus starts at the MVTA Burnsville Transit Center.
Not just, it doesn’t just stop at the Orange Line, so you can totally park there and take the shuttle bus down.
[00:35:30] Ian B: True, true. And there are a lot of other, like, I mean, like we mentioned mm-hmm . It comes straight through the, um, the Burnsville Center Mall. I didn’t see a whole lot of like . You, I, I didn’t see a parking shortage there.
No. That was a vast, you know, empty parking lot.
[00:35:46] Ian G: It’s like dealerships, like claiming parts of the parking lot for stocking vehicles. .
[00:35:52] Ian B: Yeah. So, so very easy to take advantage of that. Uh, well, okay. I, I suppose that if. That, that Buck Hill themselves probably would not be able to officially encourage anybody to park at the mall and then take the bus in.
Maybe not because the mall, the mall would probably have something to say about that. But ,
[00:36:15] Ian G: they honestly, at this point, the people who own the Burnsville Center are just happy you’re there, .
[00:36:20] Ian B: Sure, sure. Yeah. Um. Yeah. And yeah, but like if people figure that out on their own, like why not? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, so, so I guess that’s, yeah, that’s one advantage of, of this bus still acting like a local route, right?
Is that like there’s a lot of opportunities for people to pick up along the way. Uh, even if you’re not going all the way from home to, um, to Buck Hill via, via transit, um. Yeah, I do really appreciate the way that MVTA is taking advantage of and embracing the existence of the Orange Line. Mm-hmm . You know, like we have the Orange Link, we’ve got now the Buck Hill, you know, uh, when, when
they were doing the, the Renaissance Festival, you know, shuttles and MVTA was contracted for, for a few of the routes. Like they made sure that those routes were starting at a spot where you can connect to via the Orange Line mm-hmm . Um, which is just like great strategy. Uh, . I wish that more of the, the opt out systems would like actually think about the rest of the network and how they can take advantage of, like, work that, that mm-hmm metro Transit is doing. Yeah. And vice versa. Indeed. Yeah. Um, yeah, it’ll be really interesting to see like what Southwest Transit does in response to the Green Line extension going in, you know, and if they’re
[00:37:46] Ian G: cease to exist, probably ,
[00:37:48] Ian B: I mean, but there’s, there’s a lot of opportunities for-
[00:37:51] Ian G: There are, yeah. But it’s also like encroaching on their core market. Which is shuttling people to and from downtown, from Eden Prairie. Well,
[00:37:59] Ian B: I, I mean, looking at the, the routes that they offer, I wonder if Southwest Transit is more viewing micro transit as their core product now and less the express buses.
[00:38:11] Ian G: Possibly.
[00:38:11] Ian B: Because like of all of the express routes that they offer, they all go along. The same like, you know, highway 212 mm-hmm . And into downtown Minneapolis. Mm-hmm . And they all go at roughly the same times of the day. Yeah. Like, they’re not trying to capture more ridership, . No. Um, they did, uh, and, and Ryan was talking about this on the way down, um, because he works out in Eden Prairie? Um,
[00:38:37] Ian G: Chanhassen.
[00:38:38] Ian B: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, um. Southwest Transit does have their new fixed route service that goes along the 494 corridor to the Mall of America. Mm-hmm . Which is good. Um, I need to look into the details of that, but I’m glad that it exists. Anyway. Um, we’re talking about skiing . Yes.
[00:38:57] Ian G: Speaking of the Southwest Metro.
Uh, Hyland.
[00:38:59] Ian B: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think, yeah, that’s about everything that we can say about Buck Hill. So let’s talk about some of the other ski spots. Mm-hmm . Um, so Hyland. Is technically closer to the core of the cities. Mm-hmm . Than Buck Hill, but takes longer via transit. . Yes. Um, and that’s largely because of, um, the, the long walk at the end, uh, where it looks like you’ve got, what, half an hour of walking from the end of the 540?
Yeah.
[00:39:28] Ian G: Sounds about right.
[00:39:29] Ian B: 20, 25 minutes. Yeah. Um, have you ever done that? Have you ever gone to. I mean, you’ve skied at Hyland, right? Yes.
[00:39:36] Ian G: Yeah. I don’t think I’ve skied at Hyland since like high school.
[00:39:39] Ian B: Okay. Okay. How does it compare? Because like my, my ski experience is pretty much just, uh, Afton Alps, Buck Hill, and I, I have like, looked at the hill at Como Park, .
[00:39:53] Ian G: I didn’t even know there was one there.
[00:39:54] Ian B: Yeah, it’s um, it’s, it’s very like children. Beginner friendly. Yeah.
[00:39:59] Ian G: Okay. Uh, Highland’s pretty comparable to Buck. I would say maybe a little less, uh, elevation, but mm-hmm . And a lot more like snowboarders, A lot more terrain parks.
Okay. And a lot more children.
[00:40:15] Ian B: tell us how you really feel about children, Ian. Goodness. Um, so
[00:40:20] Ian G: the rats,
[00:40:21] Ian B: so, so looking at the like transit connections there, um, the 540 is a Metro Transit route that goes east, west, along, uh, like American Boulevard, right? Mm-hmm . Is that right? Oh, 76th. Um, and. So you can connect to it from the Orange Line. You can connect to it from like the 4 or, um, you know, several other north/south routes. Uh, and on weekends it looks like it runs every, every 90 minutes, which is not ideal.
[00:40:58] Ian G: No .
[00:40:58] Ian B: Yeah. Um, and that, that 25 minute walk at the end is, um. Yeah. Kind of, kind of a killer.
[00:41:06] Ian G: Yes.
[00:41:07] Ian B: So where does that leave us? Like do you, do you think, should we be advocating for Metro Transit to like extend the end of the 540 to, to go down there to the, you know, the parking lot at, at Hyland?
[00:41:23] Ian G: Uh, I think so. Why not ?
[00:41:26] Ian B: Are there, are there other opportunities that we can think of? Like, should we have, I mean, you know, MVTA started up a, a specific route named after Buck Hill mm-hmm . To get people to Buck Hill. Like, is there, is there an obvious, um, opportunity for like, oh, okay. Uh, we’re gonna have a route that just goes from like the American Boulevard Station for the Orange Line and goes over to Hyland.
Um. You know, make, can, can we combine that with any other locations down there? Are there, are there other recreational opportunities on the weekends?
[00:42:02] Ian G: I was gonna say, you know, we were just talking about the Southwest Transit mm-hmm . To like, mall of America and
[00:42:07] Ian B: Yeah!
[00:42:08] Ian G: Airport, and then out to Eden Prairie, like, just could have like a quick deviation off of there.
[00:42:13] Ian B: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yeah. Or, or if that, I think currently that route does not connect to the Orange Line. But if it did mm-hmm . It would do so right there at like American Boulevard. Mm-hmm . Right. So if both the Orange Line and the Southwest Transit, you know, stopped there. Yeah. Then you could have one route that takes you from that spot.
Mm-hmm . To to Highland Park… Hyland Hills. Hyland Hills. There you go. Um, so that’d be a good, a good opportunity. Mm-hmm . Um, of course both of those are serving . The, the Southwest, you know, part of town. Yeah. Right Afton Alps is the East Metro. Yeah. I have talked about this on like the Transit to Trails episode.
Mm-hmm . Uh, before, but like, I really want to see a, like, you know, Minnesota DNR partnering with like Metro Transit or somebody to have a, like a weekend, once an hour shuttle that goes from . Downtown St. Paul. Mm-hmm . Or maybe since the Gold Line is gonna be starting up soon, you know, it could start in Woodbury.
Yeah. You know, and, uh, go straight out to, to Afton in the winter. It could both stop at Afton Alps and take you into the state park. Seems like a slam dunk to me. .
[00:43:34] Ian G: Yeah. I’d like to see that. Uh, more in general, just having, uh, car free alternatives to get out to state parks. Mm-hmm .
[00:43:42] Ian B: Yeah. Yeah. And when Afton is like the closest state park to the Twin Cities mm-hmm
Um, that has overnight camping, like that’s an obvious, obvious candidate for sure. Mm-hmm . Do we wanna talk about cross country skiing at all? Are you into that scene?
[00:43:59] Ian G: I’ve done it once or twice.
[00:44:01] Ian B: Okay. Um, on Tuesday I’m gonna be going on a Sierra Club trip. Uh. Taking the, uh, to Th7eo Wirth Trailhead.
Mm-hmm . And, you know, they’re, they’re hosting a like learn how to skate ski. Yeah. Uh, cross country skiing, uh, event. So I’m planning on making a video outta that. Okay. Uh, and, and I’ll, I’ll add any updated notes that I, you know, need to hear in this podcast episode. Sure. Around that. But, um, you know, that’s, that’s a spot that has a direct local Metro Transit connection. The trailhead used to be the layover point for that route. Mm-hmm . And then I think folks who go skiing there quite often were . Being vocally annoyed at how much space the bus hook up, like right there on the curb when it, you know, it sits there for a while. Yeah. Before like heading back out.
Uh, and so Metro Transit moved the layover point to be the next stop at like Plymouth and, and Theo Wirth mm-hmm . Boulevard or whatever. That’s Parkway. Yep. Which means that if you, if you, if you don’t happen to be there right when the bus shows up, you are going to have to walk. To get to it. Mm-hmm . Uh, at the, at the actual layover point, I got lucky one time, uh, I was like, had finished dinner.
I was like going to the bathroom and I see the guy who’s like washing his hands next to me has a Metro Transit patch on his, on his jacket, and I was like. "Hey, you look like you’re the driver of the bus that I’m gonna try to catch." And he’s like, "yeah, yeah. If you’re out there in like five minutes, I’m, I’m gonna head out soon."
And I was like, cool. . So that was fun. Yeah. , like, so Theo Wirth is, is kind of the obvious, like big flagship. Cross country skiing spot in Minneapolis. Right. Minneapolis Park Board has several other locations where they, like, they groom a route for, for cross country skiing, but you know, they don’t do like the, the artificial snow, you know, snow makers mm-hmm
Uh, the way that they do at, at Theo Worth and those locations are mostly like on lakes, right? We’ve got one on Lake of the Isles and I think one on Nokomis. Mm-hmm . Um, and so like . It’s not quite as easy to get to those, you know, you’re not gonna be able to get off of the bus and like immediately be right there at the spot where you’re skiing.
Yeah. So. I would love to see some more Yeah. Buses that, that drop off like close to those spots, which in the summer would also be good because I mean like the lakes, right? Yeah. Like that’s a big recreation destination over on the St. Paul side of things. Of course they’ve got the Battle Creek cross country skiing area that has, uh, snow makers, and it’s on the east side, so it is very underwhelmingly served by transit . Mm-hmm . It’s not that there isn’t a bus that goes that way, but like their frequency isn’t awesome, right? Yeah.
[00:47:00] Ian G: That’s like hourly.
[00:47:01] Ian B: Yeah. It looks like it’s hourly. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Oh yeah. Skiing.
[00:47:08] Ian G: Skiing!
[00:47:09] Ian B: Here we are. We’re in Minnesota, right? Mm-hmm . Twin cities where ideally you would think like, oh, the kids who are growing up here are growing up, like being exposed to ice skating, skiing, you know?
Mm-hmm . Your, your stereotypical winter sports. That’s like, yeah. This is why we have like Olympic athletes who come from here is because like, yeah, they’ve been doing this since they were like three years old. Um, and, and making sure that families have the opportunities to get to these locations without a car, you know, as we continue to, to build communities more and more that, um, it’s possible to live car free. And we also wanna be able to recreate car free. Mm-hmm . Yeah. You and I have been thinking about a ski trip for next season. Yes. Uh, that’s also by transit, but is not here in the Twin Cities.
[00:48:03] Ian G: It it, it’s a bit longer.
[00:48:04] Ian B: Yeah. , uh. We were thinking about, uh, taking the Empire Builder out to Whitefish, Montana. Mm-hmm . Which I can’t decide if that’s gonna be like more of a hassle or less, less of a hassle than the Colorado trip we just did. .
[00:48:19] Ian G: Uh, it depends on how you look at it. Probably take us more time to do that. Yeah. Just ’cause it’s like two days out there.
[00:48:27] Ian B: Right? Yeah. Um, I mean, the way that I traveled to Colorado was like via ground travel.
[00:48:34] Ian G: That’s true. I, I flew out there and back, so for me it. Was much less of a hassle to travel out there.
[00:48:40] Ian B: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, I’ll be very interested to see like where, in relation to the ski resort, the Empire Builder drops off.
Mm-hmm . I haven’t really done that research yet.
[00:48:53] Ian G: Um, uh, I, I’ve looked a little bit, the train drops you off in town and then mm-hmm . Kinda similar to Winter parker, a lot of other, the, these, uh, winter Mountain destinations, they have shuttle buses that’ll take you like from . That’s stop at various points in the town.
Okay. And they’ll take you up to the mountain.
[00:49:10] Ian B: Yeah, yeah. Of course. We are not gonna be able to take advantage of a, like, oh, stay in one place where lodging is cheaper, and then take the train to the actual place that we’re skiing, right? Because we are on a long distance train that only goes once a day.
[00:49:28] Ian G: Yep.
[00:49:28] Ian B: In each direction. So, um, but I, I, I mean, I think in terms of like more high adventure, . Up in a proper mountain ski opportunities that are accessible from the Twin Cities, like going all the way out to Montana doesn’t seem like a terrible option if you’re like, if you’re trying to like, only go via public transit, right?
Yeah, yeah.
[00:49:52] Ian G: Of course. If we ever get, uh, the Northern Lights Express and we can take that up to Spirit.
[00:49:57] Ian B: Yeah. Wait, oh, Spirit’s like right there next to Duluth?
[00:50:00] Ian G: Yeah.
[00:50:00] Ian B: Oh yeah. Yeah. I always forget about that one.
[00:50:02] Ian G: My dad used to do that back when it was the, uh, North Star.
[00:50:05] Ian B: Oh wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Awesome. Um, yeah, whenever I think about up north, I think of Lutsen, um, which is of course okay.
You wouldn’t, you would need more than just that train connection. Yeah. To get up the North Shore . Yeah. . But yeah. Sweet. Ian, any other final thoughts about, about skiing via transit?
[00:50:27] Ian G: Um. It’s fun!
[00:50:29] Ian B: It is! . . Uh, yeah. And, and I think we’re, I think we’re going in the right direction. Mm-hmm . And I would love to see us continue in that direction.
Mm-hmm . For sure.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Streets.mn Podcast. The show is released under a creative commons attribution, non-commercial, non derivative license. So feel free to republish the episode as long as you are not altering it and you are not profiting from it. The music in this episode is by Eric Brandt in the Urban Hillbilly Quartet.
This episode was hosted, edited, and transcribed by me, Ian R Buck. We are always looking to feature new voices on the Streets.mn Podcast. So if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [[email protected]]. Streets.mn is a community blog and podcast and relies on contributions from audience members like you.
If you can make a one-time or recurring donation, you can find more information about doing so at [https://streets.mn/donate]. Find other listeners and discuss this episode on your favorite social media platform using the hashtag #StreetsMNPodcast. Until next time, take care.