Snow season is one of the biggest challenges for Minnesota’s transportation system. Let’s chat with the folks who make sure the snow gets cleared!
Links
- Saint Paul Snow Emergency page
- Minneapolis snow season page
- Duluth Snow Emergency page
- Rochester Public Works winter page
- St Cloud snow removal page
Attributions
Our theme song is Tanz den Dobberstein, and our interstitial song is Puck’s Blues. Both tracks used by permission of their creator, Erik Brandt. Find out more about his band, The Urban Hillbilly Quartet, on their website.
This episode was produced by Stina Neel, was edited by Ian R Buck, and transcribed by Parker Seaman aka Strongthany. Many thanks to Sean Kershaw and Lisa Hiebert for coming on the show! We’re always looking to feature new voices on the show, so if you have ideas for future episodes, drop us a line at [email protected].
Transcript
[00:00:00] Sean: So, and this is a cliche, but it’s absolutely true snow emergencies aren’t really about snow. They’re about parking.
[00:00:09] Ian: Welcome to the Streets.mn Podcast, the show where we highlight how transportation and land use can make our communities better places. Coming to you from beautiful Uptown, Minneapolis, Minnesota, I am your host Ian R Buck. Snow season is upon us, which is one of the most challenging things for our transportation system in our state. It’s the perfect time to take a deep dive on the process of snow removal, So our producer Stina Neel sat down with Sean Kershaw, who is director of St. Paul Public Works, and Lisa Hiebert, who’s the communications and public services manager for St. Paul Public Works, to chat about it. They recorded just as St. Paul was wrapping up their first snow emergency of the season. Let’s dive in.
[00:00:55] Stina: So Just to kind of get a background feel for the network. How many miles are we talking sidewalks trails bikeways? What are what’s the scope?
[00:01:06] Lisa: We cover about 1,800 lane miles when we plow and that’s streets We have about a hundred bridges in st. Paul that we cross And over 230 miles of bike lanes Throughout st. Paul and and a number of a number of sidewalks and Stairs that we shovel as well public sidewalks and stairs. So it’s it’s quite a bit for the capital city.
[00:01:33] Stina: And then we’re in as we’re recording. This is the first snow emergency of the season How are you feeling things a little busy over there?
[00:01:43] Sean: I Would say the things are busy. We’re always a little tired The thing about snow emergencies, which people might not realize is there this incredible Team effort. I mean, it’s literally hundreds of people to come that come together to make a snow Emergency work and so there really is this rush about it, you know, I’m usually down with the supervisors and the Drivers when they leave hang out with the ticketers or there when they get back in the morning And there’s this real rush to it I think with that rush comes some exhaustion at the end of it because you know, it’s a late night You know, we spend lots of time working with the public and officials Lisa spends A huge amount of time communicating with the public. So it’s both a rush. We’re happy with the outcome and it gets tiring.
[00:02:36] Stina: and, So I moved here from the Florida Keys about five years ago So like this weather is what I moved here for do you do you like snow or do you see the forecast and you’re like, hmm? That’s gonna be a busy week.
[00:02:51] Sean: I Will admit that I like four seasons and I’ve always loved snow I grew up in a place that had it only occasionally. I grew up in Omaha, Nebraska. I Am also a weather nerd. I wanted to be a meteorologist when I was in elementary school So I’ve always paid attention to the weather In the wintertime there’s a certain amount of Anxiety that comes because you really was snow, you know putting it on my pretend meteorologist hat You they can say there’s gonna be snow in 10 days You really don’t know until two or three days out. And so we pay attention We’re monitoring it And then you’ve got to watch it really closely. So it’s excitement and anxiety both I would just add to that.
[00:03:35] Lisa: I I think the word I would add is agree is anxiety Before joining public works. I you know, I love the snow. I love winter and now I think of snow So differently of the type of snow and when it’s coming in how you know, what is the road temperature? So I look at it I look at winter much differently than I did before I started working for public works.
[00:03:58] Sean: No, Lisa raises a great point because you’re you’re monitoring pavement temperatures You’re monitoring the slow the snow water ratio You’re watching temperature changes. You’re watching wind speeds that you’re suddenly you’re watching the Sun the arc of the Sun Is it gonna be sunny? Is it a snow in? December which is really different than the same snow in late February So you’re suddenly aware of all of these nuances to how the snow comes down and then what happens afterwards.
[00:04:29] Lisa: much like snow much like snowflakes Every snow and winter event is different. There is never the same one ever all different.
[00:04:39] Sean: and Maybe Christina this is you know more than what you asked for but one of the things that Lisa that’s really real for Lisa And I is how different the snows are now than they were 20 years ago And so, you know, it’s it’s not a cliche with climate change It used to get snow get cold there would be snow, you know varying amounts of snow But it would mostly except for an occasional thaw be cold and then it would warm up now We’re getting these huge temperature fluctuations, you know, we’re getting rain with snow, you know the snow emergency we just had was preceded by rain so That changes it when rain comes down on snow and then it gets really cold it turns the snow into concrete and so The types of snow are changing a lot we had a snow back in 23 That was I don’t know it was like 10 inches But it was the heaviest by weight that we’ve ever received and the snow was pushing the plows The plows were getting pushed away from the curb the weight of the snow. We can get snows that are super You know a different water content ratio where it just blows off the cloud, you know You get these great wakes of the snow.
[00:05:54] Stina: Can I ask about that though? You said the water content ratio? I’ve seen that in In forecasts or after it snows they released those numbers and to the layperson. I’m like, I don’t know.
[00:06:10] Sean: It’s all start. I mean a low ratio if that’s the right word I’m not great at math would be you know eight to one for example and that Implies for eight inches of snow. It’s about one inch of water a 20 to one snow You could you get all this depth But you’re you’re you know you get two feet of snow almost but only an inch of water content in there and so How we treat those is really different a wet heavy snow Literally becomes this dangerous projectile when it flies off the plow blades And so you know in a snow emergency part of the instruction will be to for folks to watch their speed So we they don’t accidentally throw the snow on the sidewalks With a really high water content ratio the snow just sort of you know flies into the air and it’s you know It’s it’s almost like dust.
[00:07:04] Stina: Right, that’s the difference between like snowman snow versus The fresh powder skiing snow got it What is a snow emergency and who decides it?
[00:07:14] Sean: so and this is a cliche, but it’s absolutely true Snow emergencies aren’t really about snow. They’re about parking and so the fundamental thing of a snow emergency is it triggers different parking regulations so that we can get in and Clean the streets or the you know the trails or the sidewalks, but it’s really about Vehicle parking It’s the nice thing about trails is you we can clean off trails really at any time Well, you can bring a brush or bring a pickup plow down them But a snow emergency sets in place a specific set of parking rules And so on a normal day a car if a car is on a street for more than 48 hours It’s technically you can ticket it in a snow emergency if it’s in the wrong spot at the wrong time You can ticket it immediately and and have it towed and so the goal in any city about snow emergency is Getting the cars in the right spot so you can clean the streets. Lisa. What would you add?
[00:08:20] Lisa: I would add that snow emergency is probably the one of the biggest times that we come together as living working Here in St. Paul because in order for us in public works to get those streets plowed and get that snow out of the street We really have to work with all the residents all the visitors all the businesses to you know Have people move hundreds of thousands of cars, you know Twice in 24 hours It’s a lot to ask and a lot to work with our residents but they really are the key in cooperating with us to make snow emergencies successful and You know moving your car, you know leaving it there might seem easy You know like I’m not gonna walk that around that corner and move my car But it does impact the way that we’re able to clean those streets and and it’s one of the biggest complaints We get is people don’t move their cars So again, this is really you know We say teams say plow and we really mean it to have to work with everybody To make it successful.
[00:09:24] Sean: In the decision-making is kind of fascinating because it is it legally it’s the mayor’s call and so the mayor of St. Paul Melvin Carter always is the final decider Yeah, I you know, I don’t think he’s ever not listened to my recommendation or taken my recommendation He always listens, but my recommendation is coming from talking to Lisa talking to our plow drivers Literally, we will send people to different parts of the city To say what’s the snow depth? What what’s the street conditions? And so, you know at the top the pyramid is the mayor but informing that we’ll talk to Minneapolis and find out You know how our conditions in Minneapolis It’s this huge group Conversation and then what we’ll do at the city which most people don’t realize is for the implementation of a snow emergency Almost every single department is involved. There are legal aspects Obviously, there’s aspects with parking and parking enforcement officials There’s you know, the libraries have their reaction parks is a key parts parks and sewers and traffic operations Loan their drivers to us for a snow emergency because a common question is how do you suddenly come up with all those drivers? and we borrow them from other functions, so Sewers stops their work forestry stops their work traffic operations other than emergencies So it’s this huge group effort across all different departments in the city to do this really really important service for the public.
[00:10:57] Lisa: It’s not just coming together at the beginning It really is this constant talking throughout the snow emergency, you know Obviously, we’re we’re working very closely with you know, our fire department and our police department making sure First and foremost they can get where they need to get you know to to address the emergencies and we’re talking with the school district I mean, they are another big partner Metro transit Ramsey County, I know there there’s a lot of people that we are talking with and Seeing what they’re seeing and getting their input to help make that decision So and again not just at the beginning but throughout the process of where there might be some challenges that we need to keep addressing.
[00:11:38] Stina: and Ian tells the students a lot like you’ll never get away from group projects Like at every single job you will ever have in your lifetime. There will be a group project and like a government is I don’t think I’ve ever worked solo on anything in my career but Every snowstorm will have plow like plowing but not every snowstorm becomes a snow emergency, correct?
[00:12:03] Sean: In our current system. Yes, you’re a hundred percent correct one of the one of the questions that people often ask and Lisa has to answer hundreds of times a year is When will you start plowing and we start plowing we will start preparing if the ground is frozen? Before the snow arrives, we’ll put down what we call brine, which is a really It’s a way to use less salt and keep and make it easier to get the snow off the streets when it starts snowing will be Plowing the main streets the arterial what we call arterials and collectors and so we will begin doing that anytime it snows all the time Snow emergencies and it’s one of the reasons we’re looking at different strategies are mostly about Residential parking and so that’s where there’s this threshold usually above three inches That we tend to call a snow emergency.
[00:12:58] Stina: There’s city streets versus county streets. Is there any overlap? Like are your drivers ever like well, I’m driving this way anyways I might as well plow the street on my way to my other street.
[00:13:08] Sean: What we do I’ll answer a couple of questions with that is we’ve got maintenance agreements with the county and with men dot so The state transportation department so we maintain in st. Paul all of their streets except for like highway 61 and 94 and and 280 so we’ve got maintenance agreements. We have defined levels of service. They pay us to Maintain their streets in st. Paul.
[00:13:37] Stina: So I think that’s something that when I was working in Carver County previously someone would call me and they’re like Well, I’m in the city and I saw the county truck. Why is it here? And I’m like, well, they’re on their way anyways Your streets getting plowed have fun.
[00:13:53] Sean: When we were at I usually go to what we call our snow operator spot snow plow operator training and It’s funny the county one time a county person came in and said there’s no way I would plow a st. Paul street just because any urban streets st. Paul or Minneapolis You’ve just got a lot more obstacles one of the biggest because people say well, why why can’t you plow like you do in West st? Paul well, West st. Paul doesn’t allow nothing against West st. Paul. They’ve got driveways. They’ve garage got garages They don’t allow cars on the streets in the winter time And so I know we’re spending all this time talking about cars and you don’t usually do this on this podcast But urban streets with all the cars is it is a really exciting experience to be driving a plow Down a street when you’ve got cars parked on both sides.
[00:14:47] Stina: Yeah, that’s something that like of course were big pedestrian advocates here at streets MN and Like when people ask us like oh like I want bump outs and I want all of this pedestrian infrastructure or bike lanes and things where it’s going to be impacting Potentially where where plow drivers are going to be and it’s I feel like there’s such a delicate balance of well We want these things, but we also want them to not be taken out by plows every single winter. So like where do you? Where do you find that? Where do you find the balance of what everyone wants?
[00:15:23] Sean: It’s not there’s never an exact it’s a really great great question if you were to ask or I’m gonna stereotype our long term drivers You know just get rid of the bump outs. Give me straight curves get rid of the cars The truth of the matter is they’re really good at negotiating and cars And so our drivers get really good. The funny thing is the the radial Curve of the bump out matters more than anything else And where that I’m going nerdy like if there’s a catch basin in that bump outs I mean it’s easier to plow if you have no cars and no and just a straight curb It normally boils down to You know finances we redid George Street in St. Paul this year and we added a bunch of bump outs to make it safer There was a pedestrian death are well as they were on a scooter on George & Ohio, you know a month and a half before we put bump outs on that street and Bump outs are really important for public safety. We add we added medians with safe crossing Those create more maintenance responsibilities, but It’s really critical that we add those improvements into our capital projects.
[00:16:37] Stina: I saw that you get to do some you got your CDL so that you could drive the plow and I want to know like what is the training like for someone if someone’s like I think I want to drive a plow when I grow up? What does that look like? because yeah driving on city streets where you have to manage bump outs. There’s cars There’s all kinds of things and you’re in a massive vehicle in the middle of like a treacherous snowstorm Like that’s a lot going on.
[00:17:06] Sean: There is a lot going on it was really It was like a childhood dream to get to drive a snow plow and have a CDL So, you know, I profess to have a good education, but I you know, I really wanted to drive a truck The biggest thing about it is in some ways, it’s like of Driving any vehicle the biggest thing is the spatial awareness So from my head as a driver to the front tip with a plow when it’s all the way out is I think I counted it’s about 13 feet and that plow blade is 12 feet You know, it’s a weapon essentially and we treat it very carefully, you know It’s so that we don’t damage cars or anything like that And so the spatial awareness is the hardest part because when you’re driving a plow You can’t see the bottom right corner of your plow blade the one that’s up against the curb You can’t there’s a there’s a flag that shows roughly where it is You just have to feel what that what does that curb feel like when you’re on it? Backing up is a whole new thing turning is a whole new thing, you know, how you position The plow when you turn it’s kind of I’m not a gamer But on top of the fact that you’re in an enormous heavy vehicle You’re manipulating the plow blade left right up and down and you’re manipulating assault Control and you’re steering obviously and so a part of it is just putting all those pieces together You’re also bouncing around a lot. I mean it Lisa has done this to give somebody a ride in a plow When when you’re moving a ton of snow Your back is sore by the end of the shift because you’ve been bouncing It’s it’s really and if you hit a catch basin, you know, you think you just destroyed the truck It’s so loud and jarring.
[00:18:59] Stina: It is a pretty treacherous job and it’s exciting and It’s a little dangerous And we should have a lot more respect for our plow drivers because they’re out there at what 3 4 a.m What time does a plow driver day start or does it end?
[00:19:16] Sean: It will start during a snow emergency. It may start at 8 o’clock at night Some of them double over and so they’ll do 16 hours What I probably should have mentioned at least so we’ll have you know more better thoughts is Part of the it was a was fun for me to drive The real point though is how we communicate with the public it helps to have the experience from a driver’s standpoint and As we’re talking about new snow strategies in St. Paul We’re listening to our drivers in that so yeah, it was fun. I got to do it. I’m the worst driver We have but it’s really about learning from the drivers about how do we do that work better with the community?
[00:20:02] Lisa: I would just also add, you know Riding in a plow and I have had a chance to drive a plow on our obstacle course not on the streets And it is really tough and it is you know, I don’t think it’s like I Sean You know, you said it’s like driving a big vehicle a big truck. I I Disagree it’s like driving A tank I don’t know. I don’t know what I would compare it to and the thing that I find most amazing is again, there’s all these switches and they’re maneuvering everything the blade the salt the Speed everything like that, but at the same time They are using like you have to use your mirrors And the biggest thing that I would compare that to is you know, we get in our cars day in day out and you know We get little flashing lights we get little beeping and we get all these sensors that tell us Where we’re going or if we’re getting too close or for a crossing over line None of that is in these trucks. I mean, this is really an amazing skill that the drivers That the drivers do and and and to do it in the in horrible conditions is just astounding.
[00:21:11] Sean: I one of the One of my biggest learning moments was having to plow A cul-de-sac dead end. I mean, which is a cul-de-sac Because it’s also like this geometry lesson because you have to not just move when you’re plowing it onto the boulevard It’s pretty straightforward, but our good drivers know exactly Where to put the snow where to back up where to turn it’s this Like in their head geometry I think they know it amongst themselves how good they are at it, but I don’t think the public realizes how complicated It is and if you screw up Really bad things happen and so literally because one of the things I I’ll go back to is you’re doing all of This and making sure that you don’t throw snow onto the sidewalk So you have to go fast enough to get it off the street But not so fast that you throw it into somebody’s mailbox Or or you know onto the sidewalk and so They they’re constantly monitoring it I I will say also. I know you’re sorry you asked this question Some of the biggest environmentalists in the department are plow drivers Because they’re out there They many of them fish many of them, you know enjoy the water and they are the most adamant about Using as little salt as possible. Now. I know people Salt is a whole another conversation and there are feelings about it, but in general Our drivers know it’s expensive and you know, it’s you know, it stays in the water And so that was also a surprise to know how much the drivers themselves monitor their own salt activity.
[00:22:57] Stina: Yeah, that was something I wanted to ask was That was something that we got in our blue sky Post of what questions do you want to ask and someone asked What’s the stuff that comes out the Out of of the truck is and we talk about brine salt. Is there other liquids? What what is it?
[00:23:18] Lisa: Again salt is a really important product that we use very very carefully Because again, we do know that it isn’t a pollutant boat But it’s needed for safety, especially when we have icy conditions like we we got with this first snow So we have two different types of salt products We have kind of the regular salt and then we have a treated salt And I forget what the chemical is that is the treated salt, but that will work at lower temperatures It will again salt will melt ice and that’s why it’s such an important winter tool To keep our streets safe The other thing that we do is we brine and so in st. Paul we create our own brine mix with just the regular rock salt And that goes into the trucks and when we know a winter weather event is coming We will get out and brine the streets. So when people see like little white lines on the streets That’s been brined and that’s a salt product that’s put down And again, we use that sparingly Again mostly on the arterial and collector streets And and we will do that wherever we can because that helps prevent the The snow to bind and create that ice on this on the streets But when we have like this last winter weather event when it starts as rain or freezing rain We can’t brine because it just washes it right down into the storm sewer system and then it It’s not going to work. So that’s really hard when we see these Winter weather events start as that rain It’s hard to We end up playing catch up a lot of times because we can’t put down brine But yeah, so those are our different salt products and Use them different ways all winter long.
[00:24:57] Sean: We don’t use sand and gravel in st. Paul only in rare circumstances if it’s like really cold Because it really people think it works and in most cases it just washes into the storm sewer and Blocks them up. It really doesn’t achieve what people hope it will achieve right Lisa.
[00:25:18] Lisa: Yeah Again, it can It can provide that initial traction But then it just gets pushed out into permanently and sent down into the storm sewers which Creates its own problems on the system The other thing that we did talk about that I think is really critical is that We pre wet the salt also when it comes out of the truck Which means it activates the salt right away and then it sticks it in the drive lane Because that’s where they’re trying to spread it in that drive lane because it will naturally get pushed more into the parking lanes again Trying to be careful about how and where we use the salt and not putting it Anywhere and everywhere but being really intentional activating it and pre wetting it so it stays in the drive lanes first.
[00:26:01] Stina: so let’s say I’m a driver and It’s the beginning of my shift. Is there like a section of town? Do you get a map or is there Do the trucks have GPS loaded up that says this is your route today and get out there and do it.
[00:26:18] Sean: It’s a great question If you can imagine the system we use is 30 years old And it’s literally 30 years old in the standpoint of right now and I’ll we can talk about where we’re going Um, we have routes. We have about uh, do we have 70 routes? We have 72 routes In the city some of them about half of them are nighttime routes during a snow emergency the other half are daytime And then we have routes for when we’re just doing like main streets Those routes are all on paper clipboards. So unless a driver has memorized their route at the end of every block they’re looking at the paper clipboard to say where do I go next and A it’s really archaic B it’s slower because you’re stopping you’re idling you’re wasting fuel And what we’re in the process of doing right now Is implementing what we call a vehicle route optimization system. And so it’s routes turn by turn routes on tablets Part of what’s really different. So people are saying why you know, we’ve got this we’ve had this for driving for 20 years Snow is done. It’s still two-dimensional, but it’s not point-to-point. It’s truly two-dimensional. So I live off of west 7th street. It’s a very different pattern. You’re not just going from Kellogg to st. Clair. You’ve got six lanes of traffic or six lanes to clear and so The new system will be implementing early sometime in 26 provides turn by turn routes. So there are routes We actually Match our ticketing routes with the plowing routes so and they’re also evenly distributed that we We don’t hit a certain part of town first We tend to go all over the city and then it takes a while to complete all of the routes.
[00:28:12] Stina: I’m picturing. Um, did you remember the snake a game? Where the um, I’m probably too old No, it’s like a game that I used to play on like the calculator of the phone where you have the little snake and then it just Kind of goes up and down on the grid or um, or like in tron That’s something else I think of.
[00:28:33] Lisa: The the funny part is is one of the things that we get a lot of complaints about all winter long is I saw piles drive by me with the blades up and they weren’t plowing and I saw a pile on another street And they didn’t come down my street So if you saw these these plow routes these sheets of lists of streets It’s really kind of confusing to look at that because it it doesn’t seem logical But but the routes are optimized for right turns primarily And routes will crisscross So just because you see a plow on the street over from you doesn’t necessarily mean that that plow is going to come down your street next Um, it it’s not the routes don’t seem or look logical in any way, but they are Optimized and trying to make it easy as possible for our plow drivers.
[00:29:26] Sean: One of the biggest misconceptions is why don’t they put the plow blades down when they’re plowing they do 100 percent of the time Uh, then there’s even different ways that you can have the plow down floating or fixed You know, there’s all sorts of but these routes Are complicated and with the new system. They’re also time consuming to stop We’ve got a lot of new drivers, which is really exciting with the new system. It’ll be much more efficient. So that means Less time Out with the engines running and more time, you know cleaning the streets and so we think it’ll save fuel And it will save time on the on the part of the drivers.
[00:30:08] Lisa: Another kind of fun misconception that we hear a lot about is um, you know that we always start in one area and work our way across the city, which is Absolutely false. Um, all these routes are are city-wide and when we have snow emergencies They are starting from all different points in the city So it’s not like we start on one side of the city and work our way east west north south I mean literally we are starting all over the city And so again and and plows have to get to their locations. So they’re going to drive with the plows up to their routes and they’re plowing their routes so um Yeah, so the people so we start all over the city and there’s not You know one neighborhood that gets it before another neighborhood for a snow emergency.
[00:30:57] Sean: With the one thing I’ll add that I forgot to mention is all of our all of our trucks do have what we call AVL automated vehicle locating So one common complaint is that you didn’t hit my street that my street wasn’t plowed And sometimes and the the cool thing is we can go back and look and say which truck at which time And if for some reason we missed the street, we know that answer Most of the time It’s just that there are so many cars parked on the street that we really couldn’t clean it effectively in that the cars were in the wrong spot But we we do know we know how fast our trucks are going and we know Where they are, you know, um when in the course of doing their work.
[00:31:39] Stina: So something that you talked about like so the vehicle route optimization network that’s coming up next year What else what else is new?
[00:31:48] Sean: Yeah, Lisa and I both survived the winter of 22 and 23 And that was a winner that technically we got the third most snow ever We got actually the most precipitation ever because we had three rain storms on top of the snow And that winner showed that the current system we have we don’t think is the best Um huge ruts would develop on the street, which is frustrating for everybody including our drivers And um the types of snow were difficult even when we could right now I saw I thought about this driving home from the meeting we had last night, Lisa We really can only get into residential streets in the 96 hours of a snow emergency for the most part We can do what we call center cuts What we are testing is a different model that we’re borrowing from, you know, some other places most other cities Have what they call alternate side parking And that’s where one day the week or one week one time you park on one side and then parking is prohibited on the other What that does is open up two-thirds of the street And we don’t have to call a snow emergency to get in there and clean it and so There’s an event there was a snow event in 23 where it started snowing on Tuesday It stopped on Thursday We declared the snow emergency for Thursday night, but we didn’t get into residential streets most of them until Friday morning Well from Tuesday to Friday Cars were compacting the snow It was just and then when we got in there One of the it was it was tough to plow one of the advantages of the new model that we’re testing is That we can get in earlier We can keep going back One of the hardest things i mean we can talk about what Lisa said and that snow is social We’re trying to get people to move their cars twice in 24 hours and You know, it’s there’s a lot coming at people in today’s world In that model the message is just keep your car parked where it should legally be parked just period So if we get a snow on a Tuesday, we’ve got from Tuesday until that next Sunday to go in and clean that street We think it’ll work better. We think it will actually use less salt. We think it’ll make meet people’s expectations So that was a long answer but Lisa can can add to it.
[00:34:19] Lisa: Yeah, again, we’re we’re We’re open to learning from others and what works in other cities, you know, everybody Does approaches snow differently. We can’t do what our suburb neighbors can do it put on full on parking bans We know being an urban city On-street parking is needed in our community Um, and again, so we need to work with that and find some a model that will work and a lot of urban cities Do have this alternate side parking a lot of them are are every day Then people are have to move their car every day during the winter months What we’re looking at with our pilots and this one and this during this feasibility study Is you know having that the weekly so one week you park on the odd adder side of the street You switch on a Sunday and you park on the even Adder side of the street. So every Sunday you just move your car and what we’ve learned from other cities is that becomes a regular habit and Compliance is easier again, especially on residential streets because again, we’re really focusing on residential streets Keeping two-thirds of that residential streets open One emergency vehicles can always get through a never an issue should never be an issue there But then we can get those piles in any time So if the arterials are looking pretty good We can really start going into those residentials and moving the snow out of the street Not just doing centered cars and pushing it into the cars So there are a lot of advantages and and the pilots that we did last year You know, some people didn’t necessarily like it But it showed that it could be successful on the majority of our residential streets So we’re building off of what we learned last year to do pilots again this year And hopefully we can get a little bit more snow so it can really be tested Then last year, but we’re we’re really excited to kind of take what we learned and and challenge The model and ourselves a little bit more to see how this could work in St Paul.
[00:36:21] Stina: Yeah, like I’m I’m in uptown Minneapolis and I don’t know like I stopped owning a car this year and I am still everyone’s expert on Hey, it’s a snow emergency. Where am I supposed to park and I’m like, here’s the website put in your address If it’s red that means don’t park there like And yeah, you’re right. It’s if it’s not a habit Then it’s it’s a little panic inducing every time That was a question that we got from someone was it’s my first winter in Minnesota, which I was like congratulations. Welcome What can I do to help our streets be easier to clear? Is it simply just move your freaking car?
[00:37:02] Lisa: We we joke, uh, you know, it’s kind of a lovingly way that we’re like just move your damn cars And work with us. So, um, yeah, I think you know first and foremost understanding, you know, what it means when we declare a snow emergency and what the parking rules are using our tools signing up for our alerts and Moving your car, but there’s also There’s also more things in there because it’s working with residents and businesses When people, you know, plow their driveways or their sidewalks or the alleys or the parking lots That people aren’t pushing that snow into the street because our plows are going to come right along and push it right back So we don’t want to want to again work with people and not just keep pushing the snow back and forth That doesn’t do anybody any good. So Trying to get the snow in the boulevard is really important and that’s basically get really tight but Probably number one thing is move your cars. I don’t know. Sean. What else?
[00:38:06] Sean: both cities have really good information systems in place. So whether you live in Minneapolis or in St Paul, we’ve got text systems We’ve got we call every number that’s registered in St Paul We’ve got emails, you know, there’s social there’s a number of different ways One of the things We’ve talked about the chemistry of snow and the physics of it But Lisa highlighted the fact that snow is social and that’s one of the things that we talk about so One of the ways that’s really important is to sort of remind your neighbors to move their car Or help your neighbors out on their sidewalk, you know or remind your businesses that they’ve got to keep their sidewalks So the social aspect of snow Is as important as like the physics and the chemistry of it.
[00:38:55] Stina: Yeah, that was another thing that folks brought up in our in our comment section was… Things like shoveling my sidewalk chipping the drain when it’s icy. I I love my drain right by my house I love to get out there. It’s very cathartic in the winter when it ices over and you just Get a little stabby with it um And getting getting folks to like yeah, like John down the way owns a A snow blower, so He gets out there and knowing that he’s pointing it the right way so that it’s easier for the plows and easier for everyone else That seems that’s huge. But like what How do we get people To do the right thing? Is it just spreading the information? I grew up catholic. So I’m very shame driven I don’t know if that’s quite gonna work locally, but How do we how do we get people to do it?
[00:39:50] Sean: It’s this shared Experience, you know and it’s I don’t want to compare it to professional sports, but it is you know I think in st. Paul. We love to Complain about our plowing like we do the vikings and whether it’s good or bad. It’s this shared Experience and a we’re all in it together and b It really is something it’s one of the most direct things you can do to help your neighbors out You know shoveling their sidewalk Helping to clear the corners We’ve got this neighbor down the block and he’s like you Christina. He Clears all the storm catch basins every season. He shovels out the quadrants on his own And when we talk to him, you know, he said it’s just part of what he how what he contributes to the neighborhood So I think when people do it they see this They see that you’re making literally making your neighborhood better more walkable safer You know It’s it’s a it’s a shared problem, but it’s also this great shared experience
[00:40:55] Lisa: Yeah, I think that this really you know winter showcases, you know that What of being a good Minnesotan really kind of is and people coming together and helping each other You know if they’re stuck you push them out You help shovel your neighbors driveway and and I think you know what what has been really kind of neat is for people to say Hey, you know, I have these neighbors who just moved here and you know, they’ve never They’ve never seen snow. They’ve never been in snow Or they they speak a different language Do you have any materials in a different language and and we do and so We’ve got materials and making sure that we can Help get the resources and the information, right people is a really important neighborly thing That really helps Helps everybody out. I know that there’s a couple people Who ask for extra snow emergency brochures that so they can put it in their apartment building So people know the rules or how to sign up and put it in like a Shared community board. So we love that and I think that that is that is really a true Minnesotan coming together And I do want to give a shout out to there is another group here in st Paul called the saintly city snow angels and this is kind of a organic Facebook group that was started in the neighborhood and this is a great place that if you have extra time or that snowblower And or you just want to really get out and chip those storm drains You can post that you’re available or people post that. Hey, you know, I broke my leg I can’t shovel my driveway. Can it get some help? So this is a it’s a great way to connect People who can help with people who need help.
[00:42:40] Stina: It’s like the best workout. I’ve ever done I love shoveling snow because then I don’t have to go to the gym. It’s it’s so much fun I do have a Just like a personal question. Where do you get your weather reports? Do you have a favorite local meteorologist?
[00:42:56] Sean: I I’ve been chatting a lot With Matt Serwey from channel five because he’s he’s a snow nerd We buy weather reports, you know, we buy we we subscribe to private services and a lot of companies do We subscribe to one called clear is a clear path lisa Um, so we get private but what we really do is look at a ton of information. There’s no single source Um national weather service, you know, as long as they’re continued to be funded is certainly reliable But it’s really pulling together a lot of information rather than any one particular source.
[00:43:34] Lisa: And I think it goes back to something we said earlier that with all the technology and all the weather prediction and the models It really It really is when does the snow come? When does it start falling and when does it end? I mean because that those are the key things and I think it is Important to just reiterate that we have our staff are actually driving around Measuring the snow and it really is the accumulation on the streets that they’re looking at not necessarily on your deck or In your yard or things like that. So So it’s the weather reports and what’s coming with what we’re actually seeing and what’s what’s fallen.
[00:44:16] Sean: Part of what’s changing is what we mentioned earlier We had a snowstorm a couple years ago where there was like a two or three inch difference across st Paul in what we call the snow gradient. So parts got very little parts got a lot more and so Um That that’s part of the nature of snow changing But we’ll literally go all over town, you know drop a ruler in the in in fresh snow and see what it looks like.
[00:44:43] Stina: one of the hot topics especially over on this side of the river Is municipal sidewalk clearing and I know that that’s a huge topic and a hot topic Uh, what’s the vibe? Is that is that kind of a long-term goal? Someday we’ll have municipal sidewalk or is it like, you know st. Paul. We’re just we’re we’re a big city.
[00:45:07] Sean: I’ll reframe it because I think if if we look Larger, you know part of what public works overseas is our sidewalks like It is critical sidewalks or I use them to say that the capillaries of our infrastructure system They’re the most, you know closest to people And so it’s really important whether it’s sidewalks that are, you know, don’t have tree heaves or broken panels and the quadrants are Handicap accessible. So having a really vibrant pedestrian system is really important Part of that is clearing the corners whether, you know, that’s frankly as important as the sidewalks themselves What I would like to do is fully fund the snow strategy we have right now for streets and trails We are still even compared to Minneapolis, you know, have much less money per capita or per mile Before we take on something that big but but the question is really important in an urban setting where you want, you know Available transit close to people that that it’s not just last mile It’s like last hundred feet or last hundred yards is really important.
[00:46:19] Stina: Right, so until we get Um until there is the funding opportunity to really get out there and do it It’s it’s up to us the residents and the business owners like It your sidewalk right in front of your house. That’s yours get out there and Or call call for help ask a neighbor See what you can do.
[00:46:39] Sean: If your question was what’s my priority in that category? It would be clearing corners quadrants In transit areas and low-income neighborhoods that it’s those quadrants that you can get down your street But if you can’t get across the intersection, you know, if you’re in a walker or a wheelchair or Limited mobility, I think the corners would be my first priority that takes Equipment you just can’t go in with a shovel that ice gets really thick in those corners in transit areas Where people are more transit dependent.
[00:47:14] Lisa: I would just add that, you know sidewalks are critical and and really I I don’t know that I Truly fully understood that until I again started working for public works and especially dealing with snow and we have neighbors, you know Who really end up being almost homebound Because they cannot maneuver A wheelchair or a stroller or crutches because their neighbor doesn’t shovel their sidewalks. So I mean again, this is that neighborly spirit of yes get out there and shovel your sidewalk and Make that safe and passable because not everybody necessarily uses the streets, but everybody uses the sidewalks so They are our priority and again, we need to come together and And work together with businesses and residents and you know kind of think about your neighbors who Maybe can’t navigate or step over a little ice ridge or you know walk around. So it really is helpful.
[00:48:20] Stina: Well that that is all of my questions. We got through the whole list Which is pretty impressive anything else you want folks to know I I think one thing that Lisa and I can’t stress enough because we know these folks is how much the drivers doing the work Care about the city that they you know, there’s a tendency to think they don’t care. They do a bad job There one thing is to get to the curb and you know, so I think an appreciation for how hard it is to be a driver when it’s cold Um And you know how exhausting it is but how much they care about the work they do just can’t be Stressed enough and how truly skilled some of them are You know in fact back to your point that it is one of the most important services in a northern city You know it absolutely is so that people have strong opinions about it Is a factor It’s because it’s so important. So We always think we can do better. You know, we’re actively trying to make our system better That’s a complex activity. I mean it’s it’s really complex, but it’s it’s also super important and Lisa and I You know we get tired, but we love talking about it.
[00:49:39] Lisa: I think the other thing that people may not think about that as a public works department We need to think about every single day Is you know people are used to driving their routes and they they know those are their streets It’s their street. It’s their route and they can deviate from it, you know as they choose but And that’s what we hear about is like my street my street my street which it is absolutely your street But we have to also look at it as the entire system And so it’s not just, you know, this You know two block stretch or you know the mile you drive from your house to the grocery store or something like that Whatever it might be it really is this large complex system And It’s a lot to it’s a lot to Deal with with any type of weather not just a snow emergency And we really do we do appreciate and we value when people let us know Hey, you could you miss this or can you come back and do this? We will I mean we will do our best to get back there and we will keep improving where we can And I think, you know, I’m just going to ask a little bit of patience and just Kindness of you know, let us know and we will get to it You know, we will look at it. We will take a look at it We will get back and do that pushback and that cleanup when we can But we literally get hundreds and hundreds of requests With any kind of snow storm and so we’ll try our best to get to all of them at some point So, you know a little a little patience and a little grace can go a long way To helping helping everybody survive Snow emergencies and along Minnesota winter.
[00:51:26] Stina: Yeah, that’s one thing I like to share with my friends and family Is if you do need to contact your government in any way How to communicate your needs wants desires The issues that you’re encountering in a way that is like calm collected concise and kind Because the person on the other side of the email is just a person like you Yep, we’re we’re human and and it gets it gets hard to not take some of that personally when you know when you hear it over and over and You know, we’re just coming up a snow emergency and some of the things people have said It’s hard to hear that non-stop and And it is also nice when we get the compliments because we do get those as well And so that is that’s nice and we appreciate all of it. So well, thank you both. Thank you for coming onto the podcast thank you for Teaching me and all of our listeners like I do a lot of a lot of research before an episode But I have learned so much in the last hour. This has been great. So thank you. Sean. Thank you, Lisa.
[00:52:33] Lisa: Thanks for having us.
[00:52:34] Sean: Yeah, thanks for this chance.
[00:52:37] Ian: And thank you for joining us for this episode of the Streets.mn Podcast. The show is released under a creative commons attribution non-commercial non derivative license. So feel free to republish the episode as long as you are not altering it and you are not profiting from it. The music in this episode is by Erik Brandt and the Urban Hillbilly Quartet. This episode was produced by Stina Neel, transcribed by Parker Seaman aka Strongthany, and was hosted and edited by me Ian R Buck. We’re always looking to feature new voices on the Streets.mn Podcast, So if you have ideas for future episodes drop us a line at [[email protected]]. Streets.mn is a community blog and podcast and relies on contributions from audience members like you. If you can make a one-time or recurring donation, you can find more information about doing so at [https://streets.mn/donate]. Find other listeners and discuss this episode on your favorite social media platform using the hashtag #StreetsMNPodcast. Until next time, take care.